Top 5 Reasons You Should Not Use a Shotgun for Zombie Defense

Author: ZAC Admin
Submitted: 02 Nov 2007
Filed under: Mobile Defense & Home Defense & Safety & Safety Council

Comments (152)

152 Responses to “Top 5 Reasons You Should Not Use a Shotgun for Zombie Defense”

1. Kain8719 on 05 Nov 2007 at 4:01 pm #

   I do not completely agree with the above article. Though a shotgun is not the best weapon it is by no means a poor weapon.

   Firstly in response to the ease of use. A shotgun is probably one of the easiest weapons to use. It is one of the most near idiot proof weapons ever made. It is no heavier than a M4 or AR15 variant, indeed a shotgun may be lighter than a fully load M4 once a the gadgets and gizmos are added on it. A shotgun is easily trained on as well. A shotgun also is highly versatile with a wide variety of loads that can be feed through the gun. For zombies a person does not need double or triple ought buck shot, number four buck is in my opinion preferable and lighter loads are also affective. Secondly a shotgun does not need to be precisely on target to hit the target since it throws out a number of projectiles. Also a shotgun is not as picky about loads as a rifle or even a pistol, a M4 or AR15 can be quite choosy in its taste for a certain load and accuracy can severely crippled with the wrong load, unlike a shotgun. Also a M4 needs a greater amount of care then a shotgun and in a hostile environment an ill trained fighter may not give the weapon the correct amount of care it deserves and cause it to jams or fail when they need it most, a shotgun is less likely to need as much care.

   Secondly the shotgun’s range and firepower. A shotgun can be loaded with any number of loads. For close in or distance work. For shots over seventy to two hundred yards a shotgun can be loaded with slug rounds. Also unless a person is highly trained or very good they will not be making long distance head shots on zeds so a high powered rifle may only succeed in getting them to make shots far outside their effective range and drawing in the enemy. Also a shotgun stopping power that is only eclipsed by a canon or large caliber rifle, and since there are a number of projectiles involved in the pattern there is a higher chance for hits at close range.

   Thirdly rate of fire. A shotgun does not have a high rate of fire, this is true, however in a zombie situation you do not want to panic and sent a volley of an entire magazine at a single zed. Secondly a trained marksman can empty a shotgun plenty quick. Also a point should be made that a full auto weapon would not be advisable for a zombie outbreak regardless since the temptation to waste ammo would be too great. Remember, waste not, want not.

   Fourth, reloading ability. If you are not practiced in reloading of any gun trying to get that weapon back into action could cost you your life, especially under stress. There are a number of shotguns now that have detachable magazines and even kits to change a tube fed shotgun to a mag fed one.
   Lastly ammo capacity. A shotgun has a limited capacity absolutely. That said in fleeing a zombie outbreak you will only be able to carry a limited number of rounds regardless of your weapon of choice and any weapon can choose to run out of ammo at a moment when you need it most. Your first order of business is to escape, not fight, especially if you are on your own. Firing your weapon should be your last resort and only if spotted since the report of the weapon will draw more.

   In conclusion a shotgun is not the perfect weapon but it is not the POS that it is described as in the above article. It is an effected weapon and though if a person is trained correctly a rifle gives them an advantage a shotgun should not be a weapon of last resort.

2. ZAC Admin on 05 Nov 2007 at 6:51 pm #

   It is people such as yourself who will only help further the living race and triumph over the undead. On behalf of the ZAC team and readers, I thank you for your input.

   First, if my article came across that the shotgun was a “POS”, then I improperly worded it as that was not my intention. Hollywood seems to overuse the shotgun and rarely seems to consider other alternatives.

   A shotgun is easy to use. However, continually working the action can wear the average person down. I would not hand one to my wife and say “Here, honey, go blast 40 zombies with this.” I think that if I had the choice I would hand her a weapon that would be easier for her to use over a longer period of time.

   “Secondly a shotgun does not need to be precisely on target to hit the target since it throws out a number of projectiles.”

   Right. However, the more damage you can throw at the undead head the better. In a panic, with adrenaline, and the fear of your life in the throws, it is tough to aim and hit anything. Most people do not practice this. So perhaps a shotgun would give the average person a better chance at taking some zombies out. My point was that if you needed to hit the brain to stop the ghoul, accuracy increases when using something other than a shotgun.

   “A trained marksman can empty a shotgun plenty quick.”

   I am not sure how many folks are trained marksmen on the average. I think most would be able to pick up and operate a shotgun faster than most other weapons. It is also the duty of citizens to be prepared for the outbreak.

   Still, I maintain that a shotgun would not be my first choice of weapon during an outbreak.

   “Your first order of business is to escape, not fight, especially if you are on your own. Firing your weapon should be your last resort and only if spotted since the report of the weapon will draw more.”

   Couldn’t agree with you more. Why are you not a writer for us? ;-)

3. Kain8719 on 06 Nov 2007 at 3:25 pm #

   In reply to your question of why I am not a writer for you, you haven’t asked.

4. lbreevesii on 06 Nov 2007 at 11:36 pm #

   While I mostly agree with your reasons, I do not feel that the M-4 is a suitable substitution. When it comes to zombies you are after as much physical damage as possible. This goal is completely against the ideas behind the creation of the .223(aka: 5.56 nato) round.

   First off it is a high velocity, light weight, small diamater projectile. This makes it well suited to wounding an assailant rather than killing them. Something that is all the more a problem with zombies. The round is designed to wound rather than kill(especially in FMJ form). I dare say, the only smal caliber round I would advise is the humble .22. As you may know, it has been labeled the assasins round of choice due to its tendency to penetrate a skull but not exit, therefore bouncing around causing maximum trauma to grey matter.

   Secondly, many of the problems of the shotgun can be overcome with a proper choice of model. Take say a Saiga 12ga rather than the standby 12ga pump. You get Detachable magazines(no tubes here), semi automatic fire, compact form, and just as much punch! As for recoil. What are you a wuss? Sorry, had to say it. In a semi auto shotgun recoil is GREATLY reduced over that of a pump. This is due to much of the forces being absorbed by the autoloading mechanism.

   While the m-4 has its advantages(weight, magazine capacity, combat load) it can be prone to jamming if not kept properly cleaned. If you do wish to stay with an M-16/ar-15 variant the H&K G36, and 416 are good options(however expensive).

   Other excellent options include the FAL firing the high powered .308 round. Despite potential overpenetration, the proper bullet choice can overcome this and lead to some serious tissue damage.

   Just some words of advice from a gun lover.

5. DarkStar on 07 Nov 2007 at 12:11 am #

   It is true that the shotgun is not the ultimate weapon that Hollywood makes it look, but when hasn’t Hollywood lied about something? But bottom line is that the shotgun is perfect for defending your home from the walking dead. Consider this; For example you live in a two story house, the undead have breached your perimeter right? Well you just head up those stairs and keep your back to the top of the stairs and wait till you get a good group of them coming up the stairs after you and pump whatever rounds you have into them, essentially creating a few corpses which combined weight pushes back the rest of the undead. There by giving you precious seconds to get up the stairs and get into another room in the house that you can barricade yourself into or go out some other escape route.

   Obviously the everyday Remington or Mossberg doesn’t have the best rate of fire or a large ammo capacity. So essentially you should upgrade to something like a Fully automatic 20 round drum fed USAS-12. Now aquiring a class III destructive device in North America is a little hard, but you can dream.

6. BOURNWE on 07 Nov 2007 at 6:42 am #

   My first point on this is the stopping power of a shotgun. Most of my shooting is done with 000 buck shot. I’ve found that a single round can knock a heavy target around and occasionally comes in handy getting rid of hanging tree limbs. This power can not only stop one zombie but knock him into his buddies, providing dead zombie for the others to have to fight while you have plenty of time to reload.
   Second, if this is based on the average person, they can’t aim. The spread of a shot gun makes aiming obsolete. It’s common knowledge that zombies travel in large groups which make jus’ shootin’ in there amongst ‘em and effective strategy that can be followed by the least trained marksman.
   Most importantly, every weapon is designed for a purpose. When you’re looking out a window at approaching zombies it’s best to have a good turret mounted machine gun, however failing that, a high powered hunting rifle with a good scope can be handy. Once they’re coming through the door a shot gun or two can easily keep them at bay for awhile. When all else fails my weapon of choice is a 45 auto; it provides power, quick reloading, and easy handling. Once you’re backed into a corner the pistol would be easier to turn on yourself as a final option any way.
   While it’s true that no single weapon can defeat a large group of zombies, the right combination and a house rigged with explosives in case you fail can do alot toward saving the world from being overrun.

7. ZAC Admin on 07 Nov 2007 at 6:43 pm #

   Submitted by a ZAC reader, this shotgun might suffice:

   http://youtube.com/watch?v=Tv6_JMFoaDc

   Though I am not sure as to how readily available it would be to the average person.

8. lbreevesii on 07 Nov 2007 at 8:02 pm #

   dunno how well it works, but there is a company that makes a conversion for both pump and semi auto shotties(mossberg, remington, etc) that will allow them to use box and I think drum mags as well.

9. Kain8719 on 08 Nov 2007 at 1:43 pm #

   The.223 is highly effective, though it is small, though small size lends itself to carry large numbers of rounds. It will wound but just because it is small does not mean it will not kill. (If you are referring to current problem with killing Arabs in Iraq then I understand what you may believe of it lack of stopping power. This has more to do with the army wanting a round that can reach out farther and doing away with the 55Gr. and going to the 62Gr. which will over penetrate due to the design made for going through body armor.) That said you do not necessarily want to do the most damage possible, and if you do may I suggest a tank or a wood chipper, you only want to take out the brain, though I will agree that if that is not possible spinal damage may be acceptable, though not recommended.

   The G36 and H&K 416 would be very desirable but any weapon, even the AK47 will jam if not cleaned. The problem with the G36 and H&K 416 is obtaining them unless you are law enforcement or military, this is one reason why a standard AR is often cited as the weapon of choice. Another reason many cite the AR is that it can be modified to carry out any role one wishes. If you do wish to carry a weapon along the line of the 416, a gas piston operated AR, I suggest looking into DSarms or a SOPMOD, neither of which are cheap.I will not argue that the FAL would be a bad rifle just that carrying the larger 7.62(.308) in equal amounts to the number of .223 would double or triple your load of ammo(This still however a contentious argument among my fellow Zombie Hunters over weight and efficiency and power and distance.) Put simply a .308 is effective end of arguement.

   Secondly the 22LR is considered an assassin’s round (which may be a misnomer, in my knowledge, which could be flawed, it was used by hitmen) it was used less due to its lack of penetration but due to its low report (the sound of it being fired) since the hit was often done in a crowd. The problem that I have heard with the 22LR(and is another hot topic among some of my fellow zombie hunters) is that at distance it may not penetrate a target’s skull, resulting in you simply playing zombie pinball, redirecting the undead beast.

   As for choice in shotguns the Saiga may be a fine gun for the job, if memory severs it is based on the AK’s system and would be very reliable, plus a shotgun would take care of the inaccuracy associated with the AK. (For those fans of the AK my apologies I have never seen the AK as a accurate weapon for distances over one hundred meters.)The USAS 12 would be good as well though they both have the disadvantage of the weight of the round and amount you can carry. The shotgun is powerful though and this should never be forgotten.

   Another hot topic will be the load for the shotgun. Though most people think only in matters of double or triple ought buckshot I prefer number four buck shot since in my experience it holds a better group at distance, even holding a group at a hundred meters that would have impacted the head of a zombie, though penetration at this distance is in question. I will concede that at close range double and triple ought will likely do more damage, I simple am looking at an all around round, no pun intended. Though if you looking for the most damage why not a slug, which will reach out and touch a person at a distance, though make a head shot with a ounce and a half of lead may prove harder than one thinks.

   On a practical note another reason to look at a shotgun may be for reloading ability, not reloading the gun but the spent shells. This has been another discussion topic among my fellow zombie hunter here. If you are to stand and fight being able to reproduce ammo could be a godsend. From my experience many will not reload a .223 due to the chance of a bad load harming the gun, though with the price of lead they may now be rethinking this. A shotgun is simply less finicky about what you put through it in my experience. But reloading should also be considered n my opinion.

   My last piece is this, there will be not perfect weapon when the outbreak comes, only ones suited to the role that the operator faces. With that said depending on your place in the Zombie wars to come your weapon should reflect what battle you will be fighting.

10. DarkStar on 08 Nov 2007 at 11:25 pm #

    As for assault rifles, how does everyone feel about the P90?

11. ZAC Admin on 10 Nov 2007 at 8:13 am #

    “Second, if this is based on the average person, they can’t aim. The spread of a shot gun makes aiming obsolete. ”

    I agree and disagree with this statement. I have watched trained persons be placed through shotgun training scenarios and seen them continually miss a target. These were persons who possessed higher training with firearms compared to that of the average person and the only stress placed on them was a time limit, not to be compared with the stress of an undead outbreak.

    So while I agree that you could start blasting away and take out some of your intended targets, the average person still would have trouble aiming and could easily miss the most important target: the head. I also feel it important to note that the lack of aiming ability would most likely occur with any firearm.

12. goyaahhs on 11 Nov 2007 at 8:57 pm #

    I agree a shotgun such as the Remington 870 should be used as last resort, but a properly stocked hunting vest makes all the difference. When used in unison with another 870 or such model pump bu two persons who are familiar with their operation, the team can be quite effective. My first choice of weapon for distance is a nice .308 distance and knockdown . for closer combat 70 to 30 meters a nice PS 90 works great. High velocity and great explosive energy upon impact. From 30 meters to 10 meters a nice FN 5.7 pistol ( notice a trend to keep ammo the same.) it has the hi capacity clip and great accuracy. Finally if that get close enough a 12 guage of your choosing with 00 buck. with tghe vest fully stocked you have over 200 rounds to have on the run, ans as anyone who is prepared you have a vehicle ready to go with extra ammo already stocked, as well as your sanctuary hideout.
    ( at least I hope you do.)

13. goyaahhs on 11 Nov 2007 at 9:10 pm #

    Oh, by the way dont forget to take your .308 with you it will acceot all 7.62mm nato rounds you will find when the military gets overrun as in all the movies (not going to happen). The 5.7mm FN Hestral round is more effective than the .223, or the 5.56 mm and is cheaper when bought in bulk. The PS 90 is a top feed semi auto PDW and the FN5.7 is a nice Handgun compliment for it. But my first handgun choice is a Kimber SCII .45ACP with 3 mags. granted my family has a nicely stocked safe of weapons for just such an emergency……… Love the SKS nice for long and close combat.

14. M4357R0 on 14 Nov 2007 at 11:23 pm #

    More video of the AA-12 MPS version.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0mO0qsdSqA

    The P-90 is nice and compact which is a huge plus, but the not standard way it gets ammo might be a problem.

15. Hugh on 15 Nov 2007 at 3:51 am #

    For a zombie outbreak I would recommend the following.

    The GP-36 rifle because of its accuracy, comparatively low recoil and handling, its a good gun and if your running away you can rely on it to take out any potential threats before thry reach you and at close range 5 full-auto at head level would not immediately become useless because of recoil as in the case of a lot of guns. However a guns only as good as the ammo its firing and I would suggest hollow-points, I mean I know you need a head shot to take it out but a zombie thats been cut in half won’t be nearly as much as a threat. An underslung grenade launcher’s probably a good idea too.

    The H&K MP-5 SMG with an extended mag this thing’ll cut down more zombies than a shotgun will and will go through one and in to the next and buck will not do that. On top of that its light, mobile and reliable if well-cared-for. Although it is effected by the plague of SMG’s, recoil so you’d need to watch out. Standard ammo’s probably fine.

    For a back-stop a Berretta M9 would work just fine as you should only be getting head-shots with your pistol so power doesn’t matter that much.

    On top of that 2 M-1 defensive grenades will really make an impact on a group of zombies but if you can’t get military type grnades mixing up some blasting gel and putting screws in it will have a similar effect.

16. Kain8719 on 15 Nov 2007 at 3:00 pm #

    The p90 is a very nice weapon and the one I have handled was nice in that degree, haven’t shot one though. The problem is that the ammo is not available in quantity necessary and it is NOT more effective than the .223 which is also the 5.56 NATO. It is lighter and lacks the down ranger proformace, its one advantage is that its recoil is less. Secondly it is not cheaper than the .223 when bought in bulk and if you know a place where it is tell me, please because I doubt you will find a place where it is. And before you speak I am talking of Mil-issue .223 not hunting ammo. I will, however, give you credit that standardizing ammo is a plus.
    Another thing in regard to why the M4, AR 15, and the M16 are the most popular rifles for exterminating the undead is because they are battle proven, effective, parts are readily available and can be found in any gun store along with ammo for it. Magazines and ammo are also used by our military and those of the military are also trained on it, familiar, and most of confident.
    The G36 is a fine weapon but again I will say that obtainment of one will be difficult at best and expensive. Secondly I have fired one the G36K(or commando) model, the smallest lightest model they make of it, full auto and its light weight is not an advantage here. The muzzle would rise very fast and high in sustained bursts. This why the military has made the M16A2 capable of no more the three round burst since after the third round you have little more the an anti air craft gun. As for accuracy it the shooter that makes that call, the iron sights that were on the G36 that I fired were crude in my opinion and the AR15’s, mine at least, are much more accurate. Maybe you should look into a scope.
    A submachine gun is fine though if I had to carry one it would be suppressed, and be compatible with the pistol I carry. Lastly can people please get over the Berretta fetish please. It is not a solve all pistol, truthfully I wouldn’t mess with one that wasn’t built before they got the mil contract to make them. Secondly for what it is, a nine mil. high cap, sidearm it is rather large. A Glock 17 is smaller has a larger mag capacity, two more standard, four with a plus two extension. It is lighter and more idiot proof, no safety, outside of the trigger, just pull the trigger to shoot. As for stopping power in a pistol, you might want to look into it, when you miss the head, knocking the SOB down might not be a bad idea. If you want something the size of a Berretta get a 1911, one of the greatest pistols of all time and it has a better round.
    As for grenades I wouldn’t waste the effort carrying them. They are not going to kill reliably, maybe slow the bastards down but unless they explode at head level they are not going to do much damage. One has to remember that most weapons are made to kill people and the systems that work to keep people alive, system that do nothing for the undead. In truth they may be more of a danger to you them to them, especially if you have no training on them. So unless you are planning on creating a zombie hunting brigade I remind you that stealth is your best bet and that firing your weapon should be your last resort.

17. Shakuras on 15 Nov 2007 at 9:16 pm #

    I would like to note that the rate of fire problem, in addition to reloading a shotgun, can both be solved if you manage to get your hands on a nice auto shotgun. The Pancor Jackhammer shoots at 4 rounds a second, has a 10 round clip, and is barrel loaded. Only problem at that point would be having enough ammo (it does use standard 12 gauge shells), storing that ammo (not a problem if behind a barricade), and having strong enough arms to use it for a while.

    I do admit, however, that getting your hands on one of these beauties is truly hard since they haven’t been produced full scale.

18. Hugh on 19 Nov 2007 at 4:36 am #

    mm… maybe I know a different G-36 because recoil wasn’t that much of a problem for me, I mean you did choose the lightest model. and the scope or modded sights are the way to go on a G-36.

    And my choice of grenades was pretty stupid if anything 2 fragmentation charges, definitely not standard military issue would work. When they go off they tend to turn limbs into pulp on a stick which I imagine would do more than slow zombies down. For starters if they had any skull cavities exposed to the blast it would kill them full stop otherwise they’d be pretty messed up from the blast, but they are as you might guess pretty hard to get.

19. AnsonMage on 19 Nov 2007 at 4:18 pm #

    I found it very interesting that I came to the same conclusion on my own. I currently rely on a Smith & Wesson M&P-15 along with a Walther P22 with a GemTec Outback II Supressor.

    I chose the AR-style weapon for 2 reasons (apart from my military training). These are 1) a good range that is effective for open sights. (In case of outbreak, who has spare batteries for optics?) And 2) for magazine capacity along with easy-to-obtain ammo.

    The next item on my list for the rifle is the 100 round Beta-Mag. Oh yeah!

20. AnsonMage on 19 Nov 2007 at 4:24 pm #

    As a side note: PLEASE! Please do not use grenades on zombies! There is nothing worse than throwing a grenade into a mix of zombies only to have pieces of said zombies continue to crawl after you!

    Explosives in general aren’t worthless, but they are far-less effective than a well-placed projectile! The problem is that with the living, explosives are highly effective at ripping us to shreds. The undead on the other hand can have both arms, both legs and a good portion of their torso blown off and they still pose a threat.

    I say again, Please don’t use explosives on zombies! I don’t want to have to contend with the crawlers you create or you for that matter when they latch onto your ankle…

21. Psycho419 on 19 Nov 2007 at 9:17 pm #

    The Carbine would be my weapon of choice.

22. shcokete on 20 Nov 2007 at 2:04 pm #

    The actual gun used is unimportant; lots of gun buffs do not know this. The main thing is that the bullets MUST contain silver. If you put a bit of scrap silver in your leadpot it will make them implode. It does not need a lot , 10 % silver should do the trick.
    If you can make your bullets at full moon that will help of course.
    If the alloy can be poured by a virgin that is better still.

23. shinola001 on 21 Nov 2007 at 10:39 am #

    The mistake that is being made here is the classification of zombies you may be dealing with. I believe we should also be prepared for “slow-movers” (ala-Dawn of the Dead) as well as “fast-movers” (28 days later).

    Now I should state that with either slow or fast moving zombies my primary defense is my Bushmaster AR-15 flat-top with the lightweight noodle barrel and an EOTech sight. Pistol is the Glock 17 and the Cold Steel Kukri is for close-in work. The Kukri is hard to beat in the remove-head-from-neck department - chainsaws excluded. My ammo for the AR is the Black Hills 55Gr Ballistic tip for “fast movers” and 62Gr SS109 for the slow movers.

    I’m surprised to read that people still have this “M16’s are unreliable…” argument. This isn’t 1973 in Vietnam…

    The Shotgun vs “fast-mover” is a hard argument to beat. Imagine trying to clear a building or a room for a safe nights rest… My Gunsite 870 with ghost ring sites is perfect for the job. Also, I believe it easily equips my girlfriend with effectiveness and very little training. Her job is to look hot and cover my 6 o’clock as well as blast the zombies off me when hand-to-hand comes in to play. “Just point at the head and pull the trigger, baby”. As far as pumping it goes…she should already know how to do that. We’ll go with the low-recoil tactical buck from Federal for that.

    Don’t get me wrong, I really like the .308 round against “fast-movers” and my M1A is great for it. The mag changes are much slower than the AR format so I’ve been thinking about picking up the DPMS in .308 to rectify this problem. That being said, .308 weighs a great deal more and the amount of ammo you can carry on the move is much less than that of the .223 so I would stick with my AR in a mobile situation.

    When dealing with the “slow-movers” from a fixed barricaded rooftop I prefer my Ruger 77/22 in .22 Mag with the Leupold VX-III in 4×12. I believe the .22 mag has enough punch to break through a skull and incapacitate zombie brain function - while allowing for a fun day of zombie plinking (or a “zombie-you-call-it” shoot-off with your buddies. In this case, I think the correct beer choice is more appropriate than the firearm….).

    Aside from zombie plinking mentioned above, another important piece of equipment for either type of zombie defense is a mouthpiece. If you don’t know why…just shoot a watermelon from 10 feet away with a shotgun and see if you tast a little juice in the air. Remember: their blood is tainted and it’s unsafe to consume. You don’t want your buddies shooting you later on.

24. Kain8719 on 21 Nov 2007 at 12:23 pm #

    I apologized if it came across that I meant recoil was bad on the G36 I was trying to states that muzzle rise is horrendous on a small rifle, the larger variant is not as bad but on a practical note the mags are sometimes hard to come by and running out of loaded rounds in the heat of battle could cost you your life. The AR 15/ M4/M16 mags are easily found and obtained, something that the plastic or polymer mags of the G36 cannot boost.
    I also concur with not using explosives on the undead, another problem could also be having undead fragments come back and impact you and not just the “living parts.” Having a chuck of a zombies skull imbed itself in your leg is a death sentence.
    The suppressor and beta mag are two thing that I cannot argue with, they re a must if your can afford and obtain them.

    A final note, shcokete should take his life more seriously, the undead are not a laughing matter.

25. shinola001 on 21 Nov 2007 at 1:14 pm #

    In regards to the beta mag and suppressors for zombie hunting:

    The beta mag seems like a good idea it actually poses a great deal of problems in this situation as well as others.

    It is very bulky and ungainly and most likely you will have only one. That means the standard 30 rounders are your normal supply that you will transition to when you empty the beta.

    Let’s say you bleed it dry. Do you drop that bad-boy in a leg-drop pouch? No - it’s too big and ungainly. Shall you drop it and hope to pick up later when time calls for it? Chances are you’ll have to move your position and it will be gone.

    Beta mags are difficult to tell how much is left - and it’s not reasonable to top it off in the middle of a stressful situation. You have the ability to “tact-change” the standard mags at any time, topping off the amount that’s in your gun. The beta mag will not provide such relief. It’s a slow loading dwindling supply of ammo (though fun to shoot full-auto on the range).

    I’ve mentioned in a previous post to another article that mobility is going to be key to defeating zombies. Here’s a snippit:

    “…the only way to defeat is to band together and you need to use all sorts of tools to let your human presence be known as well as seeking out other humans. Barricading yourself in your room is in hopes that some group will eventually defeat the zombies and you’ll be safe. A real American will be part of the group that hunts and defeats the zombies.”

    My point is that at some time as a real zombie hunter you will seek out others to partake in winning the war. The mobility and usefulness of your equipment in extreme circumstances will be tested. I suggest putting in repetitions doing speed and tactical reloads and get yourself a good chest rig and a leg drop pouch to dump your mags in.

    That being said, as a hunter would you EVER be concerned that your prey could hear you and COME to you? No need for a suppressor. If they’re too stupid to run when a hunter is after them they’re dead (again) meat.

26. Spartan125PD on 24 Nov 2007 at 1:42 am #

    I do agree that the shotgun is not the most effective weapon for zombie defense, however, how many people can just go out and buy an M-4? (Cost and availability in certain states) A .22LR is much more cost efficient (as you can buy 1k rounds for $10) and can be purchased anywhere and used by nearly anyone. Though a much smaller caliber, it still would get the job done.

27. Jack Halftrack on 24 Nov 2007 at 8:20 am #

    Why have zombies not yet mastered the skill of shooting ?

28. c1f3r on 25 Nov 2007 at 1:07 pm #

    well I think because they only long for flesh and brain and dont think about … can they even think? :)

    you guys sure have it lucky, where I’m coming from, there are no weapons and ammunition free for all after anarchy :D

29. James Brooks on 26 Nov 2007 at 2:21 pm #

    For an untrained shooter or a tired shooter or even a shooter in close-quarters action, a shotgun makes perfect sense. Loaded with buckshot, a shotgun has the potential to take down multiple zeds with one shot in close quarters.

    In addition, an untrained shooter has a far greater chance of destroying the brain or severing the spinal column with a shotgun than with any sort of rifle. I’d prefer to use a rifle myself, and hand off the shotguns to the other people in my group. I’d much prefer a shotgun over a rifle or handgun in close quarters. It decreases the margin of error and increases the chance of a successful kill.

    Incidentally, I prefer a simple M-14 with an expanded magazine as my primary.

30. Bob the Armed Liberal on 26 Nov 2007 at 2:45 pm #

    The right shotgun is exactly what you want for zombies.
    I own a Saiga-12 with a long, tightly-choked barrel, and a bag full of 8- and 10-round of magazines. The Saiga and its spare magazines are all loaded with #00-buckshot.
    This answers all 5 items: its maximum ammo capacity is 11 rounds, it reloads in a snap, it’s the fastest semi-auto shotgun made (and it shoots 9 pellets per shell), the tight choke gives it plenty of range, and the recoil is manageable.
    I also have two 10mm Glocks, just for backup, and my wife has her 8-shot .357 Magnum.

    We’re not expecting zombies, anyway: Delaware outlawed them years ago.

31. Rob J on 26 Nov 2007 at 3:00 pm #

    Actually, the effectiveness of a shotgun is only limited as to which shotgun you are using. The AA-12 and USAS-12 shotguns both address the problems you stated in the article. They both have recoil-reducing mechanisms. The bolt in the AA-12 absorbs most of the recoil, and what little recoil that is left is negligible. Also, both the AA-12 and the USAS-12 shotguns are fully automatic, and the AA-12 can load from straight magazines or drum magazines. The USAS-12 can load from straight magazines only, from what i know. I also believe that both of these shotguns can load slug rounds(tell me so if i’m wrong), which increase the recoil, but vastly increase the range.

32. Jordan on 26 Nov 2007 at 8:06 pm #

    I teach shotguning for a group i will not name on this sight and am a certified instructor. dismissing the shotgun in a pump or similar format is about as smart as trying to give a zombie a hug.
    For those of you who actually have acces to full auto or other military grade shotguns good for you and good luck cleaning them. As for the rest of us your shotgun is yourgood freind that should be called upon when the time comes, while backed into a corner.
    Its limited capacity for ammo is not a fault on its part, but yours.
    if your in a pinch and need more than 8 shotgun blasts of any load ex. slugs you suck. Its load time in that adrenaline filled situation is just as bad as your accuracy with a rifle, you follow?
    Its spread shotpattern in that backed up to the upstairs situation surpasses the need for accuracy the 8-10 or the even more rare 12 round capacity shotguns could easily holed of at least 15- 20 zombies.
    the force of the shots knocking the ones you didnt kill down would even give more time to reload.
    For the chump whi brought up the p90 obviously never fired or even handled a p90 mag. Yes there composite and light but there NON RELOADABLE!! thats right there plastic dispoasable magazine. Good luck finding ammo for the ergonomic garbage gun of the future.

33. WarmWaffles on 27 Nov 2007 at 12:56 am #

    Now I for one would choose a shot gun but only a 20ga because its light and the ammunition is lighter to carry. With that being said that also means that it will have less knock down power but it will do so nasty damage to the head if at 40 yards or less.

    Now what this article fails to mention is the fact that one would have a pistol with them if they wanted to live and also maybe a sword, because as we all know you don’t have to reload a sword. But back to real business, I have yet to find a better pistol than my prized Colt .45 because it has incredible knock down power and easy to reload and use.

    Has anyone ever shot a Five-Seven before? Because I would be very interested in hearing about its knock down power because I know it can fire at a rapid rate if need be, but it uses the same round I believe as the P90, but without the garbage.

34. spacecase0 on 27 Nov 2007 at 7:32 pm #

    I see some good ideas posted, her is my 2 cents,

    I see the zombie attack as a sustained thing.
    it takes time to reload clips, I can push new shells into my mossberg 590 way faster than I can reload any clip, and you can reload when the gun is ready to fire and aimed at the target, not something that many guns can do at all. the 590 also has a bayonet mount installed from the factory, not only does it look scary for home defense, it helps when it runs out of ammo.

    I know that 12Ga ammo is heavy (I can only carry 250 slugs on me easily) , but the main problem is that I do not own that many guns and can’t really afford to go get any more any time soon because I am low on money.
    and an ax or crow bar would be my backup,
    and would try to hide in the local sewer system as it is hard to get into and has many exits so that I hopefully would not need a gun at all.

    the most important thing with any weapon, is to know how to use it well and know its limits, if you get an ax that is to heavy for you, you will be in trouble, if you do not know how to shoot your gun, you will be in trouble, take it to a shooting range and try it out a few times, you can have a nice new gun only to find out it jams when you put 50 rounds through it, I recommend that you find out before you really need it. take it apart to clean it, you will find out if you can do this without loosing parts.
    always test your hardware completely and have extras if you can.

    I have always wondered if a flame thorougher may be more effective than any gun ? a garden sprayer filled with kerosene and a lighter may work better, at least if your outside with nothing to burn but zombies, and you can get them in any country.

    after the attack happens, everyone will figure out what works the best really fast, listen to your CB radio and ask the living that are left what they are doing right.

    and I really like the phrase “Zombie plinking” (god I hope the world never comes to that) I will have to take my .22LR with me and a few thousand rounds as well.

35. ZAC Admin on 27 Nov 2007 at 8:30 pm #

    “I have always wondered if a flame thorougher may be more effective than any gun ? a garden sprayer filled with kerosene and a lighter may work better, at least if your outside with nothing to burn but zombies, and you can get them in any country.”

    I would recommend against a flame thrower. Not only is it bulky compared to other weapon alternatives, but it is not nearly as effective.

    Should you find yourself surrounded by a group of zombies, and you use a flamethrower, you are still surrounded by a group of zombies except they are on fire. The flamethrower does not immediately take the undead out so they will pose a new threat to you.

    The most effective way to kill the brain is the best and safest route to take.

36. THE WACKER on 28 Nov 2007 at 12:51 pm #

    My brother went to some kind of military enlistment thing and was shown some kind of prototype of anew weapon. It comes as a regular carbine rifle, in many different models as well as grenade launchers.Its purpose is to extinguish the use of gunpowder. This would cut back on the costs for the wars in the middle east. But for us it means less space wasted for ammo. Look at a regular round, most of it is casing with powder. All you would have to carry is the slug itself. But there is one draw back. It pumps like a shotgun. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING TO USE WHILE BACKED INTO A CORNER. This gun shoots a slug with one pump. Unlike the shotgun that has a bigger kill radius. This new gun should only be used at distance (say clearing a fence line). This new gun is silent and just as strong as blackpowder.When ever I find out what this gun is called I will post again.

37. PsychoMedic on 28 Nov 2007 at 2:37 pm #

    They’re developing rifles with under barrel shotguns now, I’d have to go for one of those.

38. johnny on 29 Nov 2007 at 10:16 am #

    while i agree that the shotgun is not very good against zombies i cant agree that the m4 is the best choice. 556 is not a standard civilian round so it would be much harder to find then 9mm or 308. dont underestimate the power of a 22 against zombies because while it doesnt have much stopping power it is relatively quiet and can destroy the brain without too much kick or weight from ammo.
    however for a general purpose rifle i have to go with the m14. large round = stopping power and greater brain damage. ammo is fairly common and rifle is very accurate overlong ranges as well as a good rate of fire for close range. also mechanics are very simple so not likely to jam or break

39. zombiekiller on 29 Nov 2007 at 3:06 pm #

    This article overlooks the fact that any gun can jam, making any ammo supplies irrelevant. One should always carry a samurai sword for quick beheadings and to hold zombies at bay. Also, have a bicycle ready for quick evasion, gasoline runs out eventually.

    (I will have to credit the zombie survival guidebook for that, but those ideas are also pretty logical once you really start thinking about a zombie uprising.)

40. ZAC Admin on 29 Nov 2007 at 7:02 pm #

    “One should always carry a samurai sword for quick beheadings “

    We just figured that everyone already knew to carry a Samuri sword with them. ;-)

41. Noreakama on 29 Nov 2007 at 9:54 pm #

    I really doubt the claim made against the P90 magazines being un-reloadable. There is no mention of this fact on the manufactures site. Are you just staying that they are hard to reload in a combat situation. If the magazines are not able to be loaded, why are they sold empty?

    If it as meant that they take an incredible amount of time to reload, when you carry 3 spare mags and one in the gun. When you fire off 200 rounds and are worried about reloading, I think you are having a really bad day and might want to think of a career change.

42. Johnnyzombie on 02 Dec 2007 at 1:14 am #

    Um, how is it that everyone is overlooking the grand old standard, the AKM 7.62×39? I think it is the ideal anti-Zombie gun, consider: absolute reliability, high capacity (widely available and cheap 30, 40, and 75 round magazines), easy recoil, and a proven killer with its punchy .30 cal round pushing a 125 grain bullet (preferably hollow point or soft point) at 2365 fps. Ammunition is cheap and available (even in HP and SP) and the weapon is capable of cycling round after-round of the cheapest com-block stuff available. Add a Kobra holo-sight (which are side mounted and easily removed to allow access to irons) and you have a weapon that can get extremely quick acquisition in low light. Also, to those who would use the hackneyed argument that the AK isn’t accurate; I say, sure, it won’t nick quarters at 200 yards, but you sure can put rounds into a head at that distance and it will go boom anytime you pull the trigger you pull the trigger, something that can’t be said about a dirty AR. I also say if you shoot something at over 200-300 yards, just forget about an intermediate round altogether and get a full sized rifle round, .308, 30-06, or one of the .300 magnums.

    A P90 is a bad idea in my opinion, as the round is just a shortened AR round, made to excel against modern body armor. For a mindless killing machine one needs a fairly heavy round that isn’t specialized for penetration of armor. Better with a UMP .45ACP or even an old M3 Grease Gun if you’re going the sub-machine route.

43. el traverino on 02 Dec 2007 at 2:56 am #

    There is one primary reason not to use a shotgun spread round (especially a light one such as bird shot)… the penetrating power is often not enough to go through the human skull. Take Dick Cheney for example, if he had been going up against a brain thirsty undead scourge… and thats even a a few feet. If a shotgun is your only weapon or one of the only one available to you, make sure to stock up on slug rounds. If you can get them, explosive rounds are great too. While sometimes only enough to kill the directly hit victim, an explosive round can cause distraction with its loud, bright, and hot impact, and the concussion will hopefully knock a few motherless brain suckers to the ground, thinning out the ranks and buying precious time to escape. Heavier rounds like slugs are also good for breaching locked doors and other obstacles, which can be critical for escape (even from your own prepared barricades, if there is a breach somewhere else in your perimeter). Remember, ammunition type is of critical importance for all weapons, especially shotguns. For regular cartridge round ammunition; remember that teflon coated and armor piercing rounds can often pass directly trough a skull, perhaps scoring a lucky second (or even third) hit. But a hollow point round will cause vastly more trauma to the head it does hit.

    Remember, always think. It is your biggest advantage over the zombie.

44. Jordan on 02 Dec 2007 at 8:32 am #

    I really doubt the claim made against the P90 magazines being un-reload able.

    The sight you went to is for civilian legal “CP-90″-or something like that. The only ones you’ll be able to buy off that sight are semi-auto (which would be much better than full on ammo) And yes those magazines are reload able, but wasn’t the gun I was talking about a P-90? The P-90 is a “p-eice” of crap.
    The semi auto SP-90 or CP-90 (semi-auto or civilian) is just as bad with reload able mags. FN Herstal started a campaign to convince users of a new sub that would be amazingly affective in all aspects of the
    SMG world, they did.
    The only problem was the overcomplicated feeding mech. that brings fresh rounds into the chamber, the bullets perpendicular orientation to the guns barrel meant that a very small, very fragile, “turnabout” had to be placed in an area with one very odd anomaly, called “ghost recoil”.
    The ergonomic design coupled with its bull-pup style setup and composite stock generated tremendous amounts of non-felt recoil or ghost recoil. This is just recoil that’s horizontal instead of vertical. They didn’t worry about this because it has almost no affect on the shooter or the performance of the gun.
    Almost, It commonly jams the feed spring on this rotating metal ring that is supposed to float and allow the next bullet in line to “drop and push”. As an insult to its decent accuracy this ghost recoil hinders its ability (even more so than other SMGs) to keep its sight alignment with most aiming references, a few do all right but need continual adjustment to stay accurate for ex: Red dot sights peep sights -almost always aftermarket-, and some compact scopes usually made by Swiss Arms (go Swiss!) but it just doesn’t have the range for those.
    If you read into the P-90 you’ll find that Herstal themselves recommend it against infantry use so what in the hell makes you think it’ll be ok for Anti-Zombie Action?

45. Jordan on 02 Dec 2007 at 8:38 am #

    Wait a minute who cares if the p-90’s got a reloadable mag. What caliber do you think it shoots? 5.7×28mm, where do you expect to get bullets like thoes unless your close freinds with an armorer in the militery or work at herstal GOOD LUCK! Herstal came up with that bullet for there new line of copmact ergos.

46. mehrue on 02 Dec 2007 at 11:48 am #

    actually, they had a new type of shotgun on furture weapons. the A22 or something along those lines. it was basically a tommy-gun version of a shotty. it had really low recoil, because of a new dispersion design. it shredded, and it shredded fast. the clips for it contained 20 - 32 rounds. it’s a military use only gun, but in a zombie scenario i’d definitely do my best to get my hands on one.

    best of luck to us all

    meh

47. Ben on 02 Dec 2007 at 12:16 pm #

    I have a ps90, in fact I have two of them. I think that it would be more than ideal for a zombie outbreak, especially when compared with a shotgun.
    First lets look at ammo capacity. The p90 has 50round magazines, yes thats fifty. your standard shotgun can hold about 6 in the tube. I know that If my back is against the wall I’d rather be about to dish out a ton of little rounds really fast than a few bigger ones really slowly. When It comes to being able to carry ammo the p90 really shines. A .50cal ammo can, (you know the green ones) can fit 2000 5.7mm rounds. But it will only hold 160 12ga rounds..
    Range is another place the p90 out does a lot of guns especially considering its size. After a few range trips I think that consistent head shots at about 150m would not be too hard. Most assault rifles will out range the p90, but in a high stress situation most people just aren’t that good of shots.
    Recoil is another huge plus for the p90, simply put, there isn’t any. A decent marksman could get repeated head shots at about 50m very quickly. And the very light recoil would be a huge plus after days of non stop shooting, don’t want no bruised shoulders.
    Another thing that few people think about is how light weight the p90 is. I have carried one playing airsoft games for about 48hours at a time. Unlike everyone else with their larger heavier guns I was not nearly as fatigued. One last thing about the littleness, its a really quiet gun, not nearly as loud as an ar-15 . I don’t know if zeds are attracted by sounds that much, but it couldn’t hurt.

    To address Jordan’s comment: 5.7*28mm is easy to get on the civilan market now. Lowest price I have been able to get it for a $16 a box. I will admit its not nearly as common as 5.56mm its is still easy to get. And its not likely that people will be very inclined to share their ammo after TSHTF.

48. Dan on 02 Dec 2007 at 4:12 pm #

    Hi, I didn’t read over all the comments so forgive me if this was already mentioned, but in my mind a shotgun should only be used as a last resort, cornered in a room with maybe a dozen zombies coming at you from every direction. In this case, you can blast away half of the zombies on one side of the room and escape in a matter of seconds, which could be crucial. It shouldn’t be the only weapon carried on you, as your best bet would be a handgun, shotgun, and some type of high powered rifle for distance shooting. Whereas the handgun and rifle are for offensive shots, the shotgun is for defensive shots.

49. mpente on 03 Dec 2007 at 10:38 pm #

    hi, i agree that the p90 would be ideal for shooting zombies but i would use it as part of my arsenal of weapons

    my ideal weapons cache:

    -p90
    -m4 GI Assult rifle
    -winchester sx3 auto load shotgun

    The sx3 is a 12 slug auto loading shotgun, it can fire all 12 shots in 1.442 seconds. Thats faster then the p90 and the m4. its acually faster that the belt fed m2 .50 caliber heavy machine gun.if you were to use this shot gun with a ammo belt across the chest like Rambo (only with shotgun shells, not m-16 bullets) you would solve all problems other then the loading of the weapon

    i think if you had this setup then you would have a long range, mid-range, and short range weapon. all of them shoot fast enough to do some awesome damage.

    P.s.

    for all you non-believers, check this out, it will prove my facts, you can watch it and count em. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCB7uEQ9W9A

50. Jordan on 04 Dec 2007 at 9:39 pm #

    16$ a box? That kicks a little ass, last time i asked Kenny (local gunshop) i had to shell out 30$.

    Airsoft Ben? Really? Your serious, did you just compare an airsoft gun to an actual firearm? I find that insulting Ben that hurts, what about all us boys at camp silvercreek who had to pack the p-90 for two weeks, your weight and our weight are two completely dif. things.

    As for the shotgun, Nobody here is saying that you should ditch your rifle and hump around just a shotty. At 150m of course it doesnt even come close to the p-90 acuracy -yes thats right Jordan actually said something good about it-

    Who said all shotguns have the 6 round toob every one i own came with the 8 shot standard, unless of course you forgot about your sporting plug blocking the two spaces for extra shells, thats so you can go bird hunting with it. Just screw of the end of the tube and pull that POS out. And I would load an extra round into the chamber and pull off a solid 9 rounds.

    Yes there is little recoil for the p-90 but your good ole 20 guage doesnt kick like a mule either itll do just as much damage as a 12 with the right load.

    OK guys ENOUGH WITH THE P-90 lets be real about this if were gonna pull out a compact on a zombie its gonna be the new .45 cal KRISS super V. Thats a spank new bad bitch let me know the second it comes out for trials ill be all over it.

51. shinola001 on 05 Dec 2007 at 1:18 pm #

    I’m gonna chime in to put the p90 debate to rest. That odd duck might seem like it’s cool in Call of Duty 4 (real world thumbs down) but I suggest spending your $ on 5 stamped AK’s and outfitting your neighbors instead.

    As a matter of resources, I would way rather have 5 humans each with a functional firearm than 1 who can’t speed reload or find ammo 10 minutes after the first wave hits.

52. Jordan on 05 Dec 2007 at 6:59 pm #

    Shinola001

    You are the first person in a while to actually make some sense, post more often.

    I am a strong believer in the Kalashnikov rip off or not there an excellent design, and with a few U.S. mods its a formidable weapon in any area.

    Hey ZAC start a topic of appropriate weapons this is way off topic.

53. shinola001 on 06 Dec 2007 at 10:36 am #

    Thanks, Jordan. I’ve read all of your posts and it’s clear you know your stuff and can back up the talk on the range.

    ZAC, let’s also start a string on forging a plan to vanquish the foe instead of just surviving. Like proper transportation or where the best place like-minded Zombie Hunters need to meet up after the first attack.

54. Crazymother on 07 Dec 2007 at 5:18 am #

    Id have t say that the shotgun would be useful for a while, but when its comes down to both cost and zombie kill rate for any fire are, id go with the 22 cal. 10/22 Ruger With two 50 round banana clips taped together. I feel it would work best for a few reasons.

    1. Price, a ruger 10/22 will cost you only $175 at Anywhere and its well worth it just for the plinking factor. The magazines are also in great availability and are cheap as well. And lets not forget the ammo, it is the most widely made ammunition next to military .223 and 7.62, but at only a fraction of the cost, around $10 for a box of 500 rounds. You can stock pill ammo for this gun and kill your whole town if they became zombies.

    2. Its and easy weapon to use, anybody over the age of 12 would know how to work and clean such a simple firearm, and if it jammed up on you, its easy to eject the stuck round. Its also very light and shorter then a shotgun and most rifles, making it easier on the arms and body.

    3. little or no recoil, meaning that you can put more rounds in to the heads of zombies faster and more accurate than any other semi auto.

    4. The over all kill ability of the .22 LR round. Many owuld think that the 22 is way to weak to be a true zombie killer, that is far from the truth, it actually fits the roll perfectly. The 22LR will fire at 1200 to 1600 fps with an impact force from 94Ft.Lbs to 270 Ft.lbs depending on length of the barrel and the brand of ammo you use. This is more then enough to damage and destroy a human brain at over 100 yards. Another thing about the round is that it mimics the effect of the .223 from the famous m-16 or m-4, both rounds tend to tumble and fragment after first impact, causing even more trauma to the target. Now the .223 would pass right through the human head even at 500 yards, and although it would leave a VERY big exit whole, the round would keep going and be a risk to anything in its path, such as a friend that is with you and got separated or a random propane tank. Where as the .22LR only has enough energy to enter but not exit, meaning that the round will actually BOUNCE around inside the targets head and fragment even more, causing a great amount of brain damage and would probably leave your zombie flailing on the ground from the neural cross firing in he head.

    5. the mess it leaves behind. Many other weapons will tend to leave a huge mess behind after taking out said target, as many of you know, the human head is filled with blood and soft tissues, and if such mater was to say find its way into your mouth or onto on open wound by splatter or some random event that was out of your hands, then you yourself might become infected. Where as with the .22LR, there is very little mess to deal with, it leaves a small hole in the head where little blood can escape, and a bulky, stinky, virus infectious dead undead body at your doorstep.

    i really don’t know if anyone will read this or not, i just posted it for fun while i waited to join Battle grounds on WOW. But if there ever is a zombie outbreak, please take my advise.

55. GunPorn on 09 Dec 2007 at 5:36 pm #

    Personally, I would go for a 7.62 NATO “battle rifle” over a 5.56 rifle when it comes to killing zombies. Ammo capacity is about the same, although it weighs more, but the chance of actually blasting enough of their head off with a single shot is a lot higher, IMO.

56. darren on 11 Dec 2007 at 1:11 pm #

    I totally disagree with this, but this is just an opinion.

57. Eutow on 11 Dec 2007 at 7:48 pm #

    when it comes down to killing zombies, shotgun for the win. when it comes down to surviving a zombie apocalypse, shotgun for the loss. no way to install any kind of silencer, ammo is bulky, weapon itself is bulky and in some cases heavy, and the power is just too much for what you really need in a zombie situation. why not just rely on a 9mm or a glock? you just need to pierce the skull, not blow a hole in their chest.

58. Martha Rose on 12 Dec 2007 at 1:39 pm #

    I would agree with a previous commenter - guns are not a sensible option in a zombie outbreak. My guess would be that the very idea of using a gun of any kind as a primary weapon is more Hollywood rubbish than common sense.

    In any close-contact situation, a gun is going to fail you. No matter how long your ammo lasts for, you will eventually run out. In addition, anything that packs a punch (and so requires a less skilled aim) is also likely to produce a lot of spatter: the last thing you want after dispatching a zed is airborne brain matter. These strains are highly infectious - we’re all aware that a bite that breaks the skin is enough to transmit the disease, but inhaling or ingesting any infected flesh is also a no-no.

    Ideally, a machete, samurai sword, or any other blade-based weapon should be used. These do not require ammo or re-loading, are easier to use (although some training is desirable) and enable a skilled practitioner to cleave the skull or remove the head with minimal spatter (the lack of a functioning vascular system in most zeds works in our favour here, as arterial spray is not a problem).

    A shotgun may be useful, however, in some situations. Picking off zeds at leisure from a secure rooftop, for example, would be far trickier without a gun.

    That said, these weapons should not be relied on. The major problem is that they require ammo - unless you’re lucky enough to be holed up in a munitions factory, you will eventually run out!

    Sustainable weapons are a necessity if you are serious about defending and building a new society, and should be investigated as much as possible.

59. FaceGrater on 14 Dec 2007 at 8:15 am #

    I fully agree with Martha. ANY form of weapon which causes splattering should be out of the question, esp. shotguns or any high-caliber firearms. I would go for a handgun/smaller rifle during close-quarter encounters and a .22 for sniping from my roof. Spattering will get you a one way ticket to Zombieland. Unless you have a yellow HazMat suit. But running around in that would be uncomfortable I would imagine.

60. macgyverhk on 19 Dec 2007 at 10:39 pm #

    It is quite understandable that Martha is frightened of airborn Zed brain matter. I suggest wearing an NBC mask when you begin your assault. I however, disagree with the notion that one can not rely on his or her weapon to get you out in time. I also believe a Saiga-12 shotgun is your best defence against these un-Godly creatures. It can be fired controllably at a high rate of speed and 12 guage ammo is readily available. Additionally, 10 and 20 round mags are now available. But always keep a side arm in your drop leg pouch and an MP5 slung on your back. BE prepared. Prepare your three day pack now.

    If an outbreak happened, the first place I would shoot my way into, only if need be, would be the local Walmart to succure additional ammo and supplies. Everything they have in every calliber I have; pile it in my shopping cart, max out the credit card if the teller has not yet turned to a ZED, and get the ammo to my truck as soon as possible. Perhaps grab some SubWay and a Monster on the way out if time permits. Next, I would shoot my way, if need be, through the woods in my 4×4 till I reached Yellow Stone park living my days out in salitude till the ZEDs die off.

    I refuse to believe that ZEDs were once dead beings reanimated. If that was the case than where do you draw the line ie: if the Zombie virus gets out Mummy’s will rise as well, hardly. The virus has the ability to make only the then somewhat to fully living into mindless blood thirsty killers. Not reanimating the already completely dead. I further refuse to believe that people once infected by the virus live forever as blood thirsty creatures. Anything and everything that bleeds requires a food sourse to remain alive, once the ZEDs have eaten all of the nonaffected people they then would have to turn to canabalism to survive, the “dead not Zed” will begin to decompose within hours of dieing and the meat would soon be scarce at best. Eventually Zed’s, being idiots, would die off and the surviving nonaffected inteligent survivalists like myself would move back into town just waiting for one more of those disgusting SOB’s try to bust through my door so I could watch his head explode as my 12 guage slug reaches out to say hello.

61. RHINO72 on 20 Dec 2007 at 2:57 pm #

    the shotgun in my mind is a great tool for a lot of things killing Zeds is at the top of my list the shotgun could be used to blow off hings of doors and used to clear other obstacles the M4 is not a great weapon to take a door of its hings aslo you could get a nice sawed off to have strapped to your side just in chase you need to make a quick exit know days you can get auto shotguns like the M3 or the Saiga-12 but for me the shotgun would be a OH SH*T weapon when it realy comes down to it still it would be great weapon to have as a back up along with a Glock 17

62. Some guy on 20 Dec 2007 at 7:19 pm #

    one thing everyone (should know)that shotguns have massive stopping power (unlike the assult rifle) the shotgun is going to make a zombie fly right down on its back (so if your corrnerd) make sure its a bunch of stairs so you can make them pile up and block new incoming zombies

    and for the assult rifle well it dosnt stop if you miss its head and yes its not going to look at hole and stop them unlike the shotgun that if you miss the head by accident and hit there body its going to propel them backwerds and mabye by luck knocking down some of his buddys down to and to acheive a head shot for everyshot with assult rifle is well…….very unlikely only a trained millitary or swat officer could do that and the shotgun’s stock, butt (or what ever you wana call the back of a gun) is reinforced than other forms of most assult rifles m4’s, enfields,and more ones like the ak-47 and other guns sometimes from thrid world countrys or such some times (well you could buy the stock of an asslut rifle with a reinforced stock or make one) soo if one of the basterds get to close turn to close no ammo no time to reload (not preferd)but you can flip most shotguns around and use it like a bat

    but ya the shotgun is prefred to only be used for med. or close encounters as well for the poor people that wore body armour and helmets a nice 12 gauge shell(aswel as a 22. caliber rifle round will do the same) will snap that helmet in half (if you have enof aim of course if it far away)

    im not saying you shouldn’t use any other gun but everyone knows that every gun (and i mean EVERY gun)have advateges and disadvateges

    the shotgun disadvategses:
    ONE.)) well you have to load shell after shell most swat officers and millitary units traind with it are trained to load them very fast unless you train your self to load that fast reload when there not so close to bite you (or have a hand full ready)

    TWO.)) evryone knows this basterd WEIGHT every gun has it and the shotgun will have extra weight when carreing the shells (epessily if you plan to use diffrent types)

    THREE.)) Range every gun has a maximum range unfortunetly shotguns have a very………small range if you compare it to a assult rifle it dosen’t go far…and to assult rifle (manly having a 500-600 yards range) if you compare to a bolt-action rifle(sorry for goin as bit off topic)which the WW2 Kar98 bolt-action rifle the butt of the gun was DESIND for whacking some in the side of the head an incompasitating them and the range with a scope can go up to 1000 yards (if you beleve me that really far if your planning to snipe a zombie)

63. Adam Robertson on 20 Dec 2007 at 7:52 pm #

    yes the pump shotgun is slow but it has more fierpower a spats shotgun is faster rate of fire put less firepower you can upgrade shotgun to carry 25-30 rounds. the M4A1 rifle blows mad donkey balls. you want a semi-auto or bolt-action rifle the lee enfield, bar kar-98,the worst is the M1 garant, the best is the Gewehr 98. and if you have a problam you can go fuck your self !!!

64. Sam on 28 Dec 2007 at 3:13 am #

    Hey guys - for those curious about the AA12, I’ve done a write up about it. It’s the fast-firing, fast reloading automatic shotgun that, in addition to your standard rifles and high-power handguns, will be a sure-fire zombie head splatterer.

    Sure, samurai swords and machetes are nice, but you’re going to get tired awful quick swinging those around - and you’ll need a lot more practice to use them effectively. Not to mention, you have to wait until zombies are dangerously close, and forget about fending off larger numbers. My advice - carry a ninjato for when things get hairy, a handgun for when zeds get a little too close, and the AA-12 for taking down massive amounts of zombies at a safe distance - and insuring their heads asplode.

    http://www.undeadreport.com/2007/12/aa-12-shotgun-anti-zombie-weapon-of-choice/

65. curious on 01 Jan 2008 at 12:43 pm #

    i just want to put this out there, since i am not an expert or anything, but most any website i go to mentions specialty ammunition for shotguns, including exploding rounds, flamethrower rounds, bolo rounds, combo shot and slug rounds, armor piercing, different grades of shot for different levels of penetration, entry rounds for opening closed doors, even dye packs, confetti, & bean bag rounds (though that obviously the last 3 would not help you deal with ravenous undead, still fun for practical jokes and parties!) wouldn’t this diverse choice of loads contribute something in a post-apocalyptic survival scenario? *disclaimer, i do not put forward that the shotgun would be the only weapon in your arsenal, nor the primary, but a useful contribution, possibly a must

66. mike on 05 Jan 2008 at 11:12 am #

    the shot gun has many charms for defense against the undead, especially when teams up with oo buck and slugs, although the massive bruise on my right arm will testify that not being careful with such ammo can damage the user.

    anyway, there was some mention of assult rifles and their drawbacks, however, i recommend the trusty sks. it is fairly inexpensive and widely available. i have fired thousands of rounds through mine and never a problem. the ten in the box dont work for you? change into a clip. also fairly inexpensive.

    the 7.62×39 is an awesome round. me and a friend used it to fell a tree. a good six incher. granted we also used some 12 ga, hense the bruises, but over all the mighty sks did the job. through and through the stump. also has an effective range of about 600 yds stock i believe, it has been a production design since the mid thirtys, and uses the same round as the ak-47. communists all over the world agree, the sks and 7.62x 39 is a powerful and reliable system. they have stood up against m-4, m-16, and all those other clever black .223 rifles. if it can pass through trees logs, mounds of dirt, computer monitors and everything else i could afford to destroy, then a zombie is no match for the sks.

    7.62×39 is everywhere, the sks is everywhere, it loads fast and will cycle as fast as you can pull the trigger. need a rifle that wont cop out when the zombies are all about? get your sks today!

67. MasterWolf on 10 Jan 2008 at 1:29 am #

    I have to disagree a bit with this article

    Shotguns come in a lot of shapes and sizes and are potentially one of your best tools for zombie defense - esp if your out and about foraging.

    As mentioned by others a shotgun can be used for more than just zombie killin’ . its range of loads makes it a valuable hunting tool as well.

    A practiced shotgunner (and lets be honest here - if you dont practice - any weapon will get you killed) is as efficient and deadly as a handgunner with a wider range of engagement and ammo options.

    if your not a big person dont overlook the lighter 20 Gauge weapons - more ammo capacity and for most engagement rages just as effective against the living dead as a 3″ magnum 12 bore. Personally i got for 00 or 0 buck shot - 1/2 doz big ass ball bearings in a tight pattern will make unlife very miserable for even the most determined Zombie.

    For the wife and kids - a light shotgun is an excellent choice that can be effective even with point and shoot level training.

    if your worried about rate of fire and reloads - go with a Saika 20 Gauge - basically an AK chambered for 20 Gauge - same AK reliability, same AK ease of reload.

    Personally i go for a L1A4 battle rifle with a para stock and under barrel 20 Gauge on weaver racks (makes it easy to swap over if i can score a 40mm Talon somewhere). I like the range of options the big bore give me and the shot gun makes for excellent back up and utility. Back it up whith a H&K USP in .40, a bark river Evolution 1 (the best knife anywhere) and a nice sharp reliable CAS Iberia Katana (or your choice of real steel sword or axe) and your set for an afternoon’s foraging.

68. ak47thug on 11 Jan 2008 at 7:23 pm #

    I do agree with the article but I disagree with M4 as SHTF rifle. For zombie, a SHTF rifle of choice would be an AK47 in 7.62×39 as this round will stop the brain from functioning and will definitely stop the zombies behind the intended target as well. If center mass hit was done, it will ensure the zombie is knocked back so bad and give shooter a chance to raise the rifle for higher aim. A dead-center hit in the chest will always destroy the spine and turn off the brain.

    AK47 is a weapon of choice if one is to stay put in defensive position and have the liberty of expending rounds toward zombie out to 200 yards while 100 yards hit is much more secure. For CQB with zombie, a much better round is a 9mm coming out of a G19 with 6 inches aftermarket barrel and snail mags (100 rds capacity). Shooter just need to aim at chin level and squeeze away. With a G19, shooter can also get a carbine conversion kit and turn it into a long range carbine to take out zombies from the safety of his balcony.

    .223 is reserved for mall security and rodents.

69. Chimpy on 16 Jan 2008 at 11:14 pm #

    If you’re in the US I *might* recommend the M4, simply because the armed forces will have plenty of ammo for it. However, you’re ignoring the fact that the AK47 is

    1. More reliable
    2. Idiot-proof
    3. Bigger, meatier bullets.

    The advantages of the M4 are that it is
    1. More accurate
    2. Better at armor-piercing
    3. More ammunition (at least in this context)

    The only one that applies is the ammo question. I’d make a decision based on how much AK ammo you could get, but the M4 just isn’t ideal.

70. Chimpy on 16 Jan 2008 at 11:16 pm #

    Also, in response to Martha Rose - guns are ideal for many situations. They allow you to engage the enemy at ranges farther than 10 feet. A non-firearm weapon may not send stuff splattering as much, but you’ll be much closer and therefore more vulnerable.

71. jediwannabe1 on 22 Jan 2008 at 1:42 pm #

    1. I am not Alone in a zombie attack, I will have my friends carry a variety of weapons. Someone in my group will have a shotgun, and grenades. (I like the M-4, thats what I would use)
    2. I will go to a trading post, lock it down, and then I won’t have to choose and be all nit-picky about what I will shoot zombies with.
    3. If i am alone, (which I won’t be, I’m always ready for the imminent zombie attack) and stuck with a single weapon, i would want the M-4 as it fits a variety of roles, and it, and it’s ammunition more readily available than more of it’s counterparts.
    4. If I got my hands on military grade equipment, i would prefer the SCAR H, or HK 416 which can be also modded with all kinds of great grenade launchers and underslung shotguns. Or maybe the M1A1 weapons platform….

72. MasterWolf on 29 Jan 2008 at 2:59 am #

    Damn yanks!

    the M4 is a lightweight plastic piece of crap!

    the SS109 5.56mm projectile is designed to WOUND an opponent not to kill one.

    sure its easy to use and ammo is plentiful, but even a direct hit to the brain case at close range is not guaranteed to do anything more than give a zombie a nice lobotomy.

    I have personally seen normal , living humans take 7 or 8 hits from an M4 before being rendered a combat ineffective casualty - and even then they were able to be med-evac-ed with a fair chance of recovery.

    if your fighting the unfeeling undead hordes you want a weapon that will STOP a target dead!

    anyone wanting to do some research take a look at the insurgencies in the British raj at the turn of the century and the weapons the poms had to develop to stop drug crazed fanatics.

    5.56mm - great for wars with the living - shite for actually killing stuff

73. Albino on 05 Feb 2008 at 4:17 pm #

    Well i cleaned up the handgun section, time to take care of the anti shotgun market i guess.

    Anyone who has read any of my reviews know I look for two things, stopping power, and ammo availability. So a 12 gage shotgun is probably going to be ideal for a person like me right?

    For a person like me, yes, anyone who is over six foot and over two hundred pounds is going to be able to pump out round after round after round with a 12 gage.

    But what about someone smaller? (keep in mind i am advocating shotguns here) well for the shot gun there is a huge problem with smaller people, the shorter the gun is made the more kick its going to have. So what is the solution? well at this point the best i can give you is to go out and buy some .223 scatter shot ammo, its basically like firing a shotgun with little to no kick. But i have only seen .223 scatter shot once so i would not recommend it. As soon as they open a section for rifles i will tell you my opinion.
    But for those of you who are wondering when im going to get to the point.

    1. Its true shotguns have a depressingly low ammo capacity, i think the most is 20 rounds and that is in the USAS .12 a military shotgun that almost no one has access to. solutions? Get some ammo pouches, or some shell holders for the side of your weapon, get a longer tube. Usually you can get one up to eight rounds. there is really no cure for the low ammo capacity of the shotgun.

    2. As for the reloading time, just like any weapon, practice practice practice. set up a timer, start with a minute see if you can fully load your weapon. Then thirty seconds, then fifteen, then ten. if you can fully load a shotgun in ten seconds, well i am still working on that one. If you think it takes a long time to load a shotgun try loading a 30 round magazine for a rifle. believe me, it takes some time.

    3. The idea of a shotgun for a weapon is really not rate of fire, its more of a “crowd killer” weapon, so if the situation you mention is at hand, the first zombie you engage is going to topple a few feet down the stairs and become tangled with the others. but back to the point, with a shotgun you can put out about one round a second, it sounds fast but it is really quite slow, count it out “one one thousand” and that is rapid fire with a shot gun.

    4. completely agree with the writer here, shotgun rage is not the best, in fact most pistols will go farther then a shotgun. but the stopping power comment makes me nervous. it could just be me but i would feel much more comfortable with something that i know can knock a living human to his back on the first shot. Then a .223, i own a .223 and love it dont get me wrong its a great caliber, but keep in mind you are shooting a souped up .22.

    5. i really already said it, use the shotgun only if you know you are not going to hurt yourself, put it BELOW the clavicle nothing is worse then taking a shotgun butt to bone. there is a space on your shoulder a little lower then where you would hold a rifle it will not hurt anyone to shoot a shotgun there, keep in mind i never said it will not bruise.

    Now for my opinion on what shotguns to pick up.

    The Remington 1187, semi automatic, 12 gage, usually comes with a sling and a shock absorbent rubber pad. plus its pretty easy to modify these guns to have more ammo or to carry more shell holders on the side.

    The Remington 870 20 gage pump action its less gun then the twelve gage and the pump action is a natural movement when you are in a recoil stage.

    The anything made by Bernelle i think that is how you spell it. put the cash up and and you can drop any one of these off a cliff and it will still work.

    some equipment to have.

    Go onto Cabela’s website and look for “shotgun bandolier” fifty rounds you can keep across your chest, they also sell 25 round belts. also look for the TacStar weapons light system, always handy to have a flashlight on the end of your gun. i will probably get on later to put up more shotgun choices

74. cr1m50n on 20 Feb 2008 at 8:14 am #

    altho some would argue it in effective, as an alternative to buckshot, you can opt out for flechette rounds. these nasty suckers will cut thru most anything at close range. however I am inclined to agree that having just a shotgun is futile. still, a shotgun for some close quarter crowd control, with some side arms might not be a bad idea, especially if you are in a group.

75. Seshmarls on 22 Feb 2008 at 6:24 am #

    I vote the TAR-21 instead of the M-4. The TAR-21 is a bullpup config with a barrel 2″ longer then the M-4 but is 6″ shorter in length overall. This more compact design is ideal for urban settings. Also the TAR-21 has a holoscope built onto the barrel. So you don’t have to worry about bringing it to bear in a door way or getting it caught on anything.

76. Seshmarls on 22 Feb 2008 at 6:34 am #

    Oh also the xtrema2 by Beretta is a very good shotgun for the kiddies. With little to no recoil (can unload all the shells one handed(its semi auto)) even a 5 year old can mow down zombies. A shotgun is a great weapon all around add a choke to it and increase your range(not by much). Or use some of the exotic rounds (dragons breath, dragons teeth, flechette, slugs, and avengers) and spice up your day.

77. cr1m50n on 22 Feb 2008 at 11:19 pm #

    something like a USAS-12 would come in handy in these situations. altho rather heavy, this will actually help to absorb some recoil. add the fact that these types of shotguns can be operated in automatic fire modes with a 20 round drum makes them more or less extremely effective as crowd control. however, be warned, in additon to weight and bulk, in automatic mode, some of these shotguns are capable of emptying over 300 rounds per minute, meaning that a 20 round drum won’t last long if you get trigger happy.

78. jediwannabe1 on 02 Mar 2008 at 2:17 pm #

    If you’re running through a city, or any other place for that matter, during a small scale zombie outbreak a shotgun will be great to have as long as you are in a party of 3 or more and the other members of said party have diffferent weapons. Because say you have to cross a large field, you see about 15 zombies all spread about 50-100 feet apart. A shotgun can easily blow the head off of a zombie and since the zombies are spread apart, you will be able to get in close to each one if you hurry. also while running through this field say a zombie gets too close to you and you can’t raise your gun to fire at the head. just shoot it in the abdomen and it will get thrown back at least enough to give you time to get your gun in the correct position.
    now don’t get me wrong. I;m not saying that the shotgun is the best weapon, I’m just saying it would be good in certain situations. I do agree with the authors of ZAC when they say that the best weapon is an M4 assault rifle. Also sniper rifles would be great to ensure that you have a clear cut path too get to where you want to go.

79. Albino on 03 Mar 2008 at 12:24 pm #

    once again Jedi we are mostly on the same page, but i would never advocate a NATO round for zombies, due to military actions .223 (5.56) will be difficult to find it already is getting hard to shoot my Mini 14.

    Also when you talk about M16s and M4s remember one thing, your shooting a .22 with a rocket engine on the back of it. .223s were made to neutralize people with body shots, not make brain matter gray fill the room. Either way be it a .223 or a .50 Big Bore Rifle just remember HEAD SHOTS! with smaller calibers “three in the head you know they are dead.” with a shotgun, well one trigger squeeze and you can put 12 double ought buck shot rounds into one area.

    the solution? get 3 maybe four people, a rife and a shotgun! its that easy!

80. jediwannabe1 on 04 Mar 2008 at 9:14 pm #

    Dude… I wanna be with you when the zompocalypse comes…

81. sean on 05 Mar 2008 at 11:24 pm #

    but what if you don’t live in the states?
    what if you live in canada or australia or the uk?
    a shotgun maybe you only option[next to a rifle like a 303 or something similar for hunting]
    what should we who are less fortunate do?
    also skill with firearms is a major factor in any encounter with the undead,what if you were a novice or had never fired a gun before?
    shotguns are relatively easy to use and maintain for this reason because gun manufacturers know that they must make a simple,durable and often easy to operate weapon.
    and if you run out of shells could’nt you just grab your trusty machete off your back and continue on defending yourself

82. Albino on 06 Mar 2008 at 9:08 pm #

    Sean, you are completely right, if your not in the states a gun may not be the way to go. Now while i don’t know much about the UK, Canada’s fire arm laws i do know that double barreled shotguns are common. i know in Australia you can own a handgun up to a .38 so a shotgun probably would not be much of a problem.

    My recommendation is to go to the non ranged combat forum on this site. Its pretty informative. Once again my specialty is firearms, and maybe a ax for backup.

83. reid on 09 Mar 2008 at 4:40 pm #

    sean, in canada any onewith a rpal (restricted possetion and acquisition) can go to there local gun shop and buy an m4 or a glock with the right paper work. no full autos unless you have your 12.? permit though. or a fuger and a dremel :)

84. Paul Azinger on 10 Mar 2008 at 2:22 am #

    With all due respect you rifle people have lost your marbles. There is a weapon, invented in the 80’s and refined in 2007 that will blow pie plate size holes in the Zombies lickity split, read below.

    Firstly, just to clear the air, here in the States we can buy any gun ever made with a driver’s license and enough cash to cover the deal. This includes full auto belt fed electric machine guns with a cyclic rate of 3000 rds/min, and even suppresors, switch blades etc. So let’s start with a blank sheet of paper to tackle the ever growing Zombie problem.

    Comparisons, and why rifles won’t cut the mustard in close combat.

    I agree with the shotgunners here that a european bull pup, AR-15, MP-5, AK-47 etc..will punch small holes through the Zombie and will only stop it if you hit it dead on and continue to do so as fast as the Zombies pile on. Under extreme conditions you are instantly being tasked with the impossible. As we know sub guns lift considerably after the first shot. Any rookie with shooting a sub gun will point at the middle of the Zombie and as the machine gun flips up the 3rd shot will be in the ceiling where the remainder of the clip will soon follow.
    So there you are with 20 or 30 bullet holes in the ceiling and Zombies ripping your ear lobes off with as much gusto as Mike Tyson whilst you fumble for another magazine. By then you and your family’s brains will be popped out of their skulls and laid on the table for a candle light Zombie dinner.

    But having said that if all I had was a rifle I would choose the .308 caliber POF-USA P-308. This gives me the knock down capability for close quarters and long range out to 1000+ for hunter/killer operations. In my pack I keep a Schmidt and Bender scope with Badger rings which I mount on the P-308 picatinney rail for those distant Zombie shots. And don’t forget to specify the illuminated varmit recticle for the scope for low light operations.

    Now let’s get down to bidness, THE ONLY WEAPON GUARANTEED TO PUT A PERMANENT HURT ON THE ZOMBIES IS A FULL-AUTO AA-12. Imagine a huge revolver that is a 12 Ga. shotgun with a hand grip on the barrel.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c

    1. You have 20 and up to 32 cylinders in a rotary fixed magazine. This deletes grabbing for mags when the going gets tough. When it’s empty simply load the shells into the cylinder, rack the operating handle and blast away, careful not to stumble over the ever growing pile of Zombie’s under your feet.
    2. You can load ANY type of shotgun shell you want in the cylinders. HE, Armor piercing, frags or regular pellets. Use your imagination, you can even put piano wire, glass, screws etc packed in the shell casing.

    I really like mine because I enjoy looking at the blood and meat “art” on the wall after I’m through chopping down a dozen or so Zombies at a whack. Believe me, when the Zombies hear that you have a AA-12 they avoid your street like the plague. I went for 3 months without a peep from one of those son-of-a-guns so me and some buds went downtown one night and rolled about a hundred of them. We now have a club formed (HZK) and meet once week, go over our intelligence, select areas of operations, check our commo and our gear and head on out. It’s a blast.

    The civilian version of this shotgun is called the Street Sweeper and can be bought here in the States for about $1200, yes fully auto. You can order them online. Google it. PLease let me know your experiences when you get yours up and running.

85. Albino on 11 Mar 2008 at 7:50 pm #

    Paul…
    your the one guy on this forum who overkills ME good man good man! if you can send me a link to where i can buy one of those things that would be great!

86. sean on 13 Mar 2008 at 6:06 pm #

    wow that was extremly informative….
    i want an AA12 now

87. Kat S. on 21 Mar 2008 at 3:07 am #

    Everyone makes a lot of good points. Of course, if all else failed, I suppose you could use the shotgun as a make-shift club if you ran out of ammo.

88. Puck on 27 Mar 2008 at 5:21 pm #

    Jumping in a bit late here, but I’ve got a couple of points I’d like to make in response to earlier replies.

    There was mention of a firearm not being your best bet due to ingesting airborne blood/organic matter. In response to that: have you ever seen someone cut or actually cut someone with a bladed implement? You are guaranteed to get biological spatter when using a melee weapon, there is no way around it. Walking through any number of zeds and coming out clean on the other side is most definitely Hollywood hogwash. You also have to take into account the type of critters you’re dealing with. While dismembering slow zombies with a sword or machete or even a humble baseball bat sounds like a great way to spend a weekend to me, taking on more than one fast zombie with the same weapons is a terrifying prospect unless one is a master swordsperson…

    I’m honestly surprised at the support for buckshot vs slow zombies. I see no reason why a slug shouldn’t be the round of choice for slow zombies. I understand the appeal of hitting multiple targets with a single shot, but I’d have to see concrete evidence that a single double ought pellet is enough to drop one for good. Personally, I’m in favor of slugs, and in the .410, 20ga, or 16ga varities. The guns and ammo are lighter than your standard 12ga fare, and lets face it: everyone is going to be passing over the smaller gauges in favor of the 12ga ammo/weapons. If we’re talking fast zombies though, the buckshot loads obviously go up in favor due to the increased difficulty to hit your target.

    The .410 carries with it the added benefit of a variety of ammo available. Most .410’s are capable of chambering and shooting a .44 (or .45, can’t remember atm) round so you can use that ammo as well. I’ve also seen considerable success with altering a .410 shell and removing the load without removing the powder/cup and then inserting an arrow shaft with the fletchings removed. The force generated is more than enough to kill a white-tail deer, so I presume it would be equally deadly to the undead masses. Of course that would be a last resort type situation and should never be attempted unless absolutely necessary.

    Yes, a shotgun has limited range, but that’s an acceptable trade off for guaranteed stopping power. Lets face it, if the zombie is too far away for you to kill it, its too far away to kill you. Run first, shoot second. Ammo is limited in the post-change world, lets not compound the problem by wasting ammo taking pot shots at zombies 300 yards away. If you’re mounting an ASSAULT against the undead throngs, then by all means, whip out your assault rifles. However, if you’re wanting to defend yourself and your friends/family from zombies, then a shotgun is more than satisfactory since it has more range than the enemy. I’ve personally shot 2 inch groups at 100 yards with slug rounds from a shotgun, and I don’t consider myself an exceptional marksman. Shooting at zombies any further away than that is just a waste of resources.

    For those of you that *have* to have a “reach out and touch someone” capability, Savage Arms (and probably others)has for years made a multi-barrel platform that includes the possiblity of a .223 over either a .410 or 20ga shotgun barrel. Its single shot, but its also extremely light and reliable and would make an excellent weapon with a higher capacity support weapon in reserve or carried by another person.

89. Albino on 28 Mar 2008 at 8:08 pm #

    Good god! Puck!
    Folks dont listen to this guy!
    First: there is only a few weapons that can chamber a .45 and a 410 bore round one is the Contender, yes having the capability to use spread shot one minute and a .45 the next is nice, but these guns are typically break barrel one shot weapons. The highest capacity would be 6 in the Taurus Judge. but this is NOT the handgun forum and i will not rewrite my opinion on that.
    a 410? i usualy use 410 shells for two things, shooting sqwab (pidgins and other barnyard birds.) and then plinking the shells with a .22 after. the fact of the matter is 410s do not have a ton of stoping power. Like i said i use them for shooting pidgins. as for a 16 gage, i have found very little 16 gage ammo in all the hunting and sport shooting stores i have gone to. 12 gage ammo is the most common, the 12 gage is the most manufactured shotgun bore in the world.
    DO NOT EVER PUT AN ARROW IN A 410 SHOTGUN! There is a reason that it is called a SHOTGUN not an ARROW GUN! even if you do take all the shot out of the gun you still have explosive gases and vapors that are trying to escape the barrel. if that arrow gets hung up in one little spot then the barrel can explode. these are not your BB guns that you can put a toothpick in and it will work fine. you are dealing with a very very exact science.
    as for slugs, well most people want to make a mess, and with slugs yes you will knock anything on its ass, but why risk missing if you can just liquidate something with a 12 gage volley?

    good luck to all of you when Z day comes, if you listen to people who tell you you can toss a pistol caliber and an arrow into a gun built for scatter shot… well you will need all the luck you can get.

90. Puck on 29 Mar 2008 at 8:27 am #

    Albino: I’m not suggesting anyone use a .410 in favor of a larger weapon, although I realize now that’s what it sounded like. Its been awhile since I shot one, but I know I dropped my first deer with a .410 slug (I was eight, not big enough for a “bigger” gun yet), so again I have to assume it would punch through a zombie skull as well. The arrow tip is also intended to be a last resort, out of ammo thing. There’s not an infinite supply of ammo you know. If you doubt the effectiveness, ask a Virginia Game Warden how many deer they see killed with this trick each year during bow season. Of course there are varying sizes of arrow shaft, and now that most archers have moved to smaller, carbon shafts perhaps this trick is no longer as prevalent as it used to be, but about 10 years ago it was all the rage amongst poachers.

    I personally know of at least four different .410’s that will chamber a .45 long round, and in a pinch even a .45 pistol round. Again, ammo is not infinite, and while I would much rather have a .45 pistol to use the ammo, if I have a .410 and .45 ammo, I like knowing I can combine the two and still have something more than a glorified club. Sure, in a perfect world, you’ll always find ammo for the gun you’re carrying, but if we’re postulating that its a zombie apocalypse, I think we can throw the perfect world scenario out the window, no?

    As to the availability of rounds, maybe its a regional thing. Here, all shotgun ammo is available pretty equally. Of course you see bigger loads like 0 and 00 more in 16 and 12ga, but there’s always a few boxes around for 20ga and .410’s as well.

    I’m going to stand firm on my preference for slugs over shot loads for slow zombies though. Depending on the gun, the bore, and the distance you’re shooting, shot loads go from devestating (anywhere from point blank to about 15-20 yards unless you’ve got a very tight choke in the barrel, then it extends to maybe 30) to 3-4 pellets striking the target. Depending on where they strike, and at what angle, that might not be enough to penetrate a skull. Yes, you might hit more than one target, and you might get a couple of pellets through the eye, and it might be enough to kill a zombie, but I don’t like “might” in a life and death situation. I guess it comes down to if you prefer the “spray and pray” method, or more precise (if slightly slower) shooting. Of course, I would only recommend slugs for a shooter that’s confident in hitting their target. If its a novice who’s never shot a gun, then by all means, load them up with buckshot, give them as much of a chance as you can.

91. Albino on 29 Mar 2008 at 3:30 pm #

    Puck, 15-20 yards, sounds like thats enough were you could just run from your “slow zombies”. and you said so your self, ammo does run out, slugs come less commonly then any form of scatter shot, and why use 00 buckshot? 10 steelshot will still destroy anything that is not made of metal. Because ammo is so limited why would you cut a 410 shell to use an arrow? it sounds really like a cool idea, I’m not sure how well it would work but why use one arrow when you can use a slug or shot?
    i hope your not accusing me of being a “spray and Prey” shooter. i do think some of your ideas are interesting and i am glad to see someone advocating the gun that many of us took our fist game animal with.
    i will retract the last part of my last post untill i have reviewed a little more closely your ideas.

92. Puck on 02 Apr 2008 at 9:06 am #

    I’m not accusing anybody of anything. ;)

    I guess it depends on the person, Albino. Personally, I’d engage anything less than 50 yards away, and avoid anything further than that. I’m sure the rules of engagement would change with experience though.

    I assume the use of buckshot simply because in my hunting experience, its the one shot load capable of breaking/penetrating bone with the density of the human skull. Smaller loads might or might not penetrate the bone and do enough damage, or you might get a shot through the eye/soft tissue at the temple. I could be wrong, though. Its been a long time since I did any comparative tests with different pellet sizes, etc.

    I think we can agree that small game loads in a .410 are going to be fairly useless against zombies, so you could use the slugs as .410 ammo, but convert everything else to shoot an arrow. After posting that though, I perused my local sporting goods store and I have to admit that the arrows of my youth seem to be a rare commodity now. This trick worked with the 80’s, early 90’s aluminum shafted arrows. Today’s carbon shafts are simply too small in diameter for this to work reliably. If you could find or had on hand a stockpile of the larger diameter arrows, though…

93. dread 61 on 11 Apr 2008 at 4:05 am #

    personally i would use a sks. the 7.62×39 would cause alot more damage than the 223. with a bag of 30 round clips you could hold them off from the top of the stairs for hours. since you can pick one up at the local gun shop for bout 300 bucks you would have alot of money left over for ammo to prepare for the upcoming fight against the living dead. (the 223 is more expensive than the 7.62×39 also)

94. ZombieNoob on 13 Apr 2008 at 1:47 pm #

    Hi guys….totally new to zombie fighting, but been shooting for quite a while.

    It seems from what y’all are saying that the best shot on a zombie is a head shot, and so basically, anything that will penetrate the head is sufficient. With that in mind, I’d like to offer the supressed Ruger 10/22 with a folding stock.

    Why?

    Glad you asked…
    1. Lightweight, compact and portable. The Pocket Rifle from Sound Technology www.soundtechsilencers.com is handy enough to be with you at nearly all times. This rifle and a score of loaded mags could easily be carried in a typical shoulder bag. Also, a lightweight weapon obviates muscle fatigue caused by repeatedly raising and lowering the weapon in your typical “fight through swarms of walking dead” scenarios.

    2. Ammunition weight. I just weighed the 2200 rounds of .22 LR I bought yesterday at Wal Mart…15 pounds. 5.56 ammo like the M-4 uses is about 35 pounds per thousand, and 7.62 NATO like an M14 or FAL uses is upwards of 70 pounds per thousand. Now of course, for static defense, this isn’t an issue, but if you’re having to bug out from a city or something, the weight becomes very important.

    3. Ammo cost. Those 2200 rounds of .22LR cost me about 50 bucks. Priced centerfire ammo lately?

    4. Noise. Shoot a bunch of rounds through an unsuppressed rifle, especially indoors, and you will damage your hearing. No good for detecting the faint shuffling of undead feet before they eat you.

    Also, if you’ve got a good hiding place, it will be that much harder for the brain-eating bastards to discern your location, so you can put more of them down before it’s time to run again.

    Yes, the supressor adds cost and legal hassles, but in most states they can be obtained by anyone with a clean record for a mere 200.00 tax, far less than the cost of a decent hearing aid.

    5. Low recoil. This allows for faster follow-up shots, no fatigue, and basically anyone can be reasonably proficient with it in short order, especially if equipped with a dot sight. Put dot on zombie, press trigger, repeat as necessary. Result? Piles of decomissioned undead, posthaste. Watch this video of a guy shooting steel with a suppressed semi-auto 10/22. Note the complete lack of muzzle rise, making it possible for him to get hits as fast as he can pull the trigger.
    http://video.aol.com/video-detail/checkmate-22-mag-dump-from-a-1022-pocket-rifle/4267775420

    Shotguns are certainly effective tools against the living, but when considering the special requirements of slaughtering undead hordes, they can come up short.

    <