Slash or Bash
When the debate rises over the proper dispatching of the undead everyone knows that you have to destroy the brain, cutting the control that it has over the body and the creature that is trying to eat you. The debate, however, rises over the proper way of doing this. Do you use a sword and finesse, such as a katana and decapitate the fleshwalker, or do you use a club and brute force and beat it’s brains out?
This debate, sword over club, is the age old discussion of finesse over brute force. Granted there are swords that combine both quite effectively, the claymore for example. But, since the two weapons that are debated most commonly are the baseball bat and the katana we will look at them.
The Katana:
The katana is arguably one of the most elegant weapons ever made. The sword is sleek, slim, lightweight(roughly three pounds or 1.4 kilos), and has the grace about it of a beautiful woman. It also has the vicious bite of a tiger and is capable of severing limbs and even entire torsos. The katana’s main use against the undead is to separate the head from the body and eliminating the zombie as a threat. In the hands of a trained user it’s motions are seeming simple, the balanced blade moving with grace and flowing from one cut to the next. It is however an edged weapon, and no matter how good the steel or how sharp the edge it will need to be sharpened regularly if you expect to take the head of the many undead that will be about.
The Bat:
The baseball bat is iconic. Not just sports, but also in the area of zombie killing. There are any number of movies and games where you can see someone take a baseball bat to the brain pan of a member of the undead. It is also lightweight, running anywhere from one and half pounds(.5 kilo) to about two and half pounds(a little over 1 kilo). The baseball bat also conjures up images of the bad boy tough guy bashing heads with the short wooden stick. However, with the bat you have more than just wood to choose from, you can pick up its aluminum brother that is lighter and hits just as hard, or if you’re feel inadequate with those can always upgrade to the allegedly unbreakable Cold Steel Brooklyn Smasher. With the possible exception, and possible is used loosely, the baseball bat will break or in the case of aluminum bats bend. This is not a possibility, it is a good likelihood that after prolonged use the bat will break, the question is just when. Even just hitting a baseball a sufficient number of times will cause a wooden bat to break so if you carry a bat, carry a back up or two.
The Smashup:
Which one these two choices are the best? That is the question. The answer, however, is not simple. There are a number of factors, training being the greatest, but also durablity. But, in general for the basic survivor what is recommended. Well, for ease of use, availability, and because when it connects with force it is a kill the recommendation goes to the baseball bat. While the katana is elegant and sleek, and will likely outlast the baseball bat it is designed to cut and sever not smash. A decapitated zombie head can be just as dangerous as a walking zombie, possibly more so. Just because the head no longer has a body does not mean the jaws aren’t working and trying to bite you at the ankles. The heads that are rolling on the ground like biting soccer balls and still must be dispatched unlike if you crushed the skull with a bat.
Comments (88)
Adam on 05 Jan 2010 at 5:48 pm #
Interesting points, but I personally have never liked katanas. They are about as elegant as swinging a dead fish. I often find the blades too short, and although a katana has much more cutting power than any other swords of the same time, I find I get tired much more quickly swinging one. They’re clumsy and awkward, and will take a hell of a lot of practise to be able to use with any real effect against the undead.
Saying that, I’ve also never understood why people would use a baseball bat. One missed swing will send you off balance and turn you into zombie food. Along with the difficulty in continuously crushing skulls and breaking spines all day, I see a baseball bat as more of a “if-there’s-absolutely-nothing-else” weapon, or a mediocre clean-up weapon, in case any paralyzed or decapitated zeds are lying around after a skirmish. Also, baseball bat handles are unsettlingly thin. I wonder how long one would last in combat?
Although the argument is between these two, I’d say neither. I would use a larger hand-and-a-half sword (such as my beloved claymore), or a long knife/dagger. Also, a decently forged, well sharpened blade with a pointed end would easily be able to smash through a zed’s face like a spear and skewer the brain, so decapitation isn’t the only option.
Adam on 05 Jan 2010 at 5:51 pm #
*When I said “same time”, I meant “same size”.
Sharpshooter on 05 Jan 2010 at 6:58 pm #
I’m doing a bit of katana training now and holy shit is it hard. I think I’ll stick with the bat, and if I die then another survivor can come along and use it as well. My gift from beyond the dead :D
sean on 05 Jan 2010 at 7:02 pm #
although i do own a folded steel katana,as well as a wooden bat i must say that a quality sword,especially a katana is hard to find whereas a baseball bat is usually found in any north american home,furthermore swords maybe hard to use for an amateur,especally to deliver a blow that completely severs the spinal coloum,also i believe that the decapitated head my still pose a risk of infection through a bite,alternately a baseball bat can be hard to acchieve a killing blow with depending on the bat and strength of the user,i would personally prefer a combination of the best of both worlds in the form of either an axe,used to decapitate people for centuries,or a machete which is light-weight,usually made strong and easy to use for anyone,still severing the spinal coloum may be difficult so i would reccomend a blow to the side of the head to facilitate cranial trauma or remove the top of the ghoul’s skull
Angryvikingman on 05 Jan 2010 at 8:50 pm #
Yeah, give me a hand and a half sword, thick machetes, or some escrima sticks. I know if my kukri can take a 3 inch limb off a tree in one whack, then it can take a head/arm off just as easily.
Also, its Armeggdon week on the History channel and theres a program on now about survivng a viral pandemic. Also theres a guy called apocalypse man gonna be on there tomorrow. You guys need to prepare. “They” are trying to prepare us for disasters, and viral outbreaks.
Angryvikingman on 05 Jan 2010 at 9:07 pm #
Also, you can wield a bat just like a sword. It functions with the exact same principle except for its balance point. If you learn how to transfer the energy of the missed blow into force of a return or circular blow, then a bat CAN be a very deadly weapon. Use the bat to put yourself in the position for a killing blow. Swordplay isnt a one slash one kill thing, it takes multiple strokes. If you want a bat that can take some severe punishment, I suggest one of the “unbreakable” ones that cold steel makes. If they can run it over with a truck, then you’re not gonna be able to break it by swinging it.
Norman on 05 Jan 2010 at 9:24 pm #
One word: crowbar. Solves the problem of durability (have you ever seen someone break a crowbar?), is still lightweight, readily accessible, and is simple & easy to use. It combines the best of cutting (the curved end is usually surprisingly sharp even after extended use) and crushing. The only drawback is length, as it is usually more comparable in length to a machete than a katana. However, even with slow zombies the difference in length won’t make much difference as these all require you be within at least two paces of the zombie.
So I say skip the katana, which once it’s severed a few spinal columns will be pretty tough to get through more, and skip the bat which will probably break before the third hit. Choose a crowbar, and choose life.
KillerB on 05 Jan 2010 at 10:58 pm #
Blunt trauma is the way to go. Crush the skull, kill the zed……..PERIOD. WWI they used all sorts of hand made/improvised weapons to fight in the trenches. The entrenching tool was the favorite of many WWI vets. You can sharpen the edges for cutting power and the flat blade made a hell of a skull cruncher. Not much stand off but effective. AND it serves a dual purpose of also being a small shovel for that gardening project that you started when the supermarkets closed…………LOL………………..CHEERS
KillerB on 05 Jan 2010 at 11:01 pm #
Plus a Tomahawk (one of the new ones made for combat out of some seriously tough metal) would be good. As a matter of fact it would be great. Not to big or heavy but deadly. So i digress………I would use a tomahawk and then fall back to the sharpened entrenching tool……………CHEERS
Adam on 06 Jan 2010 at 2:15 am #
The issue I have with axes is that to decapitate a zed with one blow, it would have to be pretty big, almost certainly a two handed axe, and that will make it slow and heavy. Plus, there’s only a small area that will actually kill, hitting it with the wrong part will be the same as hitting it with a stick. Also, and this applies to tomahawks and swords too, if you try to cut through a neck and don’t quite make it, your weapon will probably get torn out of your hand when the zed staggers back and/or falls over, because human flesh (dead or alive) can really grab at thing like that, or it might get wedged in the skull.
ZimTzu on 06 Jan 2010 at 2:51 am #
Shovels. Nothing beats a shovel to the brainpan. And when you are on the move, any weapon will also have to serve as a tool to reduce the weight you will be carrying around. Machetes are also good.
If, for some reason, you really want a non-tool heavy duty weapon, get a halberd. Good reach, and it can crack skulls open like nuts.
Angryvikingman on 06 Jan 2010 at 3:09 am #
To keep any weapon from being torn from your hands in battle, use a lanyard. Thats what they were designed for. Use a piece of paracord and make a loop for your hand. Simple as that.
jay on 06 Jan 2010 at 4:11 am #
angeryvikingman thats what ive done with my axe drilled a hole in the handle and put some parracord thru it to go over my wrist like you said stops it getting torn from your hand…
Adam on 06 Jan 2010 at 5:00 am #
Okay, but what if you want to let go of it? You can’t really stop and fiddle with it in the middle of a zombie fight. Someone should invent a glove with some kind of magnet clamp, and put metal handles on things :)
Angryvikingman on 06 Jan 2010 at 6:14 am #
The loop can be big enough to slide your hand out easily and still keep it in your hand when you want it to be. On my kukri I have it so if I open my hand it will hang on my wrist, but if I turn my hand over and straighten my fingers it will just slide right off. You have to mess with it to get it just right, but when you get it there it’ll stay on if you want it to, or come off easily as needed.
Interesting idea with the magnets, but the release threshold would be too loose for it to be effective, or too tight to allow manueverability of the tool/weapon as needed for instantaneous adjustments.
Angryvikingman on 06 Jan 2010 at 6:39 am #
@ Adam
Actually, I made a headsman’s axe for a friend of mine that weighed less than a baseball bat and was remarkably balanced. I used an old industrial bandsaw blade from a sawmill. Thats a great source of high carbon spring tempered steel that you can hone to a razor edge, and it will stay that way through almost any abuse. Its thin and insanely strong. Couple that with a custom hickory handle that I got a friend of mine to make at the Stanley handle factory and it was so freaking wicked. The max width of the blade was almost a foot and a half, and the handle was 3 feet. I used my set of arkansas stones to make it shaving sharp. I wanted to keep it for myself, but it was a birthday present. That however, is the only axe I would use for a zombie melee weapon due to the fact that it was light, sharp, and was more of a slicing type of weapon than a woodcutting axe.
@ anyone else considering an axe for a melee weapon:
A regular single/double bit axe would be utter crap in a true fight. Even medieval battle axes would be horrible. Yeah, you could kill a person, but what are the odds of hitting the zombie in the head with the first stroke when its at a dead run and flailing about like a retarded monkey. Axes are tools for doing a job. Sure, in a fight against a living person, an axe will cause them to rethink the whole idea, but a zombie isnt worried about getting hurt. About the only thing that I could think of that would be acceptable would be a tomahawk in your off hand coupled with a larger bladed weapon in your main hand. Much like Mel Gibson in “The Patriot” or a Main Gauche and Rapier combo that you may have seen in some swashbuckling films. Weapon combos give you a great amount of versatility.
Holy crap that was longwinded….
Sevandor on 06 Jan 2010 at 6:41 am #
This article forgets there are other swords (many which are better). I have a thing against katanas, because they are overrated. I am fully trained in European sword combat with everything from viking swords to cutlases….they are far superior. they require less finiky finess, and are ofter lighter beleive it or not, cut just as well, and are more durrable, do you dont neeed to wory about it wearing out on you.
Bashing weapons need too much strenght and you would tire too quickly to be effective…
You need a slicer that is not too heavy (like an axe) unles you have years of training with it. Go for swords, but dont for the love of god use a f*cking katana.
Adam on 06 Jan 2010 at 8:51 am #
I agree wholeheartedly with Sevandor. Also, if you have to go for a one-handed sword, it would be better to get one with a hand guard so the zeds can’t bit your hand as you swing at them. I’ve never seen a katana with a hand guard.
3-15 INF on 06 Jan 2010 at 12:01 pm #
I’m more of a diversification guy when it comes to hand to hand weapons. I’d say that I would stay away from a big heavy sword for MY choice, but I wouldn’t mind someone in my group having one definitely. This is kinda a duplicate answer to the melee weapon question. My own list of weapons would be such-
1. Cold Steel Rifleman’s Tomahawk- Light, can be carried on belt, multiuses vary from smashing heads in, to throwing, hammer on back side for building and barricading, can be used to cut firewood.
2. Cold Steel poly baseball bat- Great bludgeon that will take abuse and is effective to smash heads.
3. Cold Steel Boar spear or similar weapon- Spears can be very effective in stabbing deep and quick into a face, and then just as quickly be retracted for another blow. The shaft is very strong and long, keeping zeds at a distance. If you use a reproduction Roman Pilum, they dismantle to 3 parts that can be carried in a pack.
I’m definitely a smash and stab guy over a slash. I’d just be worried that a slashing weapon would stick in bone and be harder to remove. I’m sure there are plenty of sword guys that would disagree. In a group, swords would be great, but I wouldn’t want one by myself.
McLuvin on 06 Jan 2010 at 3:44 pm #
Adam, how can you claim that a 2lb. baseball bat will throw you off balance but a 4-5lb. hand-and-a-half sword would not. That goes against the laws of physics. I think that for the average person a bat would be much easier to use without hurting themselves.
For my personal melee weapons I have a SOG fusion tomahawk and a Spyderco forrester knife. If I were to get a sword it would be a Cold Steel cutlass or possibly a Grosse Messer. They both have tremendous cutting power while being relatively lightweight and capable of being weilded with one hand.
StoneTree on 06 Jan 2010 at 4:23 pm #
What happened to the T-ball bat? Sure, it is a little smaller, which means closer range. But you can swing it faster, with more control.
For close combat, which most melee combat is, I would say go with a metal t-ball bat in each hand. Worst case, you can break some limbs and slow them down a little.
In regards to the blade vs bash question, I gotta say bash. Don’t remove the brain, destroy it.
Ronin666 on 06 Jan 2010 at 4:24 pm #
A katana too short? most average 28inches in the blade plus anther 12 to 14 in the handle. I don’t want to be swinging anything longer than that. I see lots of “your training is more important than your gear” talk but the katana is too hard to use? Why didn’t you do some training with it? A real katana (not your mall ninja replica) will cleave a man in two, most euro swords will not,they are more of a stabbing weapon( to peirce armor) where a katana is made to slash. (for all intents and purposes a sabre is a european katana so I group them together). A chinese Dao is also a great chopper.
Having said all that ,a pick handle is a wonderful blunt force weapon and hardware stores are full of them, I carry one in my car at all times(along with a pick head in case of questions)
3-15 INF on 06 Jan 2010 at 4:47 pm #
hear hear for the pick handle! We used to use ‘em to patrol the barracks during wild and crazy times
Adam on 06 Jan 2010 at 5:51 pm #
@McLuvin I didn’t say a hand a half sword wouldn’t throw you off balance, but at least you have the option of not swinging it as hard as you can. You can slash and stab with a sword, but a bat can only crush.
@Ronin666 the reason I didn’t do much katana training is because I hated every second using one. The style is completely different to most other swords. I only mentioned the katana training because if you don’t have it, you can’t use one effectively, but any idiot could use a cutlass to some degree of efficiency.
Also, a 28 inch blade is a long katana, not an average one. As for a sabre being the same as a katana, I beg to differ. Just because the blade is curved, doesn’t make them the same.
Yes, katanas are much better at slashing, but the whole point of a sword is that you can slash and stab, and sometimes crush. My claymore could easily cut a man in two, and just as easily skewer him or crush his skull. Plus, to get maximum cutting power from a katana, it must be wielded with two hands. And if I’m gonna use a two handed sword, it’s definitely not gonna be a katana.
Also, just to clarify, european swords are very, very diverse. They aren’t all designed to stab. Some are designed to slash, some to crush and some to duel.
KillerB on 06 Jan 2010 at 6:43 pm #
Ditto 3-15 INF
I do not think that the Tomahawk was ever designed to remove a head. The idea is not to remove the head just cause massive brain trauma. The pick on the back of the Cold Steel Tomahawk would be a great and effective way to damage the brain. It is going to be a lot easier to puncture the skull with the tomahawk than with a large knife.
Cheers……………+1 for 3-15 INF’s list………….I would grab the same shit in the same order.
sean on 07 Jan 2010 at 1:30 am #
i agree fully with the above, cranial trauma is probably the most effective method of dispatching a ghoul,i believe that the real question is not how to dispatch the dead but how to prevent infection from flying bodily fluids,which would be reduced with and effective kill made by a single blow,regardless of the weapon i believe the skill of the user is the real issue of regard…….
whatever.. on 07 Jan 2010 at 5:29 am #
Katana?… Come on this is not a superhero movie , An average 2010 human stamina cannot support more than few strikes and they still lack the skills for it.
Baseball bat is fine.
Angryvikingman on 08 Jan 2010 at 4:18 am #
Personally I dont like the katana because it is single edged. To much repositioning for a return/second cut if the first one was blocked/inaffective. A double edged sword allows cutting just about any way you swing it.
@McLuvin
A good hand and a half sword may weigh more than a baseball bat, but it is far more balanced, thus making it much easier to wield. Trust me when I say that swinging a baseball bat will put you more off balance than swinging a sword. You also get more effect for less effort due to the amount of force generated on the area of contact. A baseball bat will spread the force over a larger area. A sword, if it doesnt cut clean through, its gonna break whatever body part you hit with it, whereas a bat may not or can even be deflected (more easily than a sword.)and cause little or no damage.
My personal choice for melee weapons is this:
Primary: Hand and a half sword
Secondary: A combo of my kukri and a tomahawk, or two kukris.
If you want to learn some really sick ways to use kukris, then just learn 2 kama katas. I recommend the traditional katas, not the crazy competition ones. They’re traditional for a reason, they work. Also, a good place to look into european martial arts(sword fighting) is ARMA. I trained for 2 years with the local study group. Most of it is stuff you can learn in an afternoon, but like anything else, the more you practice the better you get.
ThatScoutKid on 09 Jan 2010 at 12:37 pm #
If somebody wanted to prove that we are insane they would only have to look at article haha. Now about the weapons.Instead of using one or the other why not carry both? If not that then i think a well made large cleaver might do the trick. My friend has a small very sharp one that i could chop through a 2X4 with a few hacks. That or one of those cold steel hatchets. Or just say screw the melee and go with an assualt rifle with a bayonet.Almost any rifle with a sturdy wooden stock can be used as a melee weapon. All in all i would have to go with cutting weapons though. Many can serve as tools too.
Adam on 09 Jan 2010 at 1:06 pm #
I would say that one should have removable bayonets on every gun, whether it be a rifle, a shotgun or a pistol. And yes, you can put bayonets on pistols.
KillerB on 09 Jan 2010 at 5:13 pm #
I do not think that anyone is saying that a baseball bat or tomakawk or katana is the best thing for killing the undead. We all understand that a rifle, shotgun or pistol is better at stopping the undead masses. BUT there are only so many bullets that can be made and fired. At some point it will boil down to hand to hand. Hell even if you have a million rounds laying around the house if you only have one gun then you may still need to use something else to stop the Zeds. The point is that a proper defense is set up in layers. We dress in layers to stay warm, we prepare or food stocks in layers to ensure that freshness is maintained, we arm ourselves in layers, first the rifle or shotty, then the hand gun and finally a good sturdy blade. Layers = Survival So when you decide that a gun is the best then you are right. get the gun and lots of ammo and then go and shoot the shit out of it. If you want a sword then get one and train like there is no tommorow. Training is also layered. Start small and build a foundation of knowledge and then build off of that. Cheers, KillerB
Sharpshooter on 09 Jan 2010 at 10:42 pm #
I havn’t noticed anyone bring up the machete yet. It seems to be a good median between brute force and the cutting edge of the afformentioned katana. Go out and buy a nice double edged machete and you’ve got a damn good weapon right there!!
McLuvin on 09 Jan 2010 at 11:43 pm #
Well said KillerB.
Angryvikingman on 10 Jan 2010 at 2:59 am #
Actually, my kukri is a cold steel kukri machete. So, I’ve brought it up a few times.
FallenKnight on 10 Jan 2010 at 11:34 am #
I haven’t posted on here for a while, so bear with me while I catch up.
All you folks calling the katana clumsy or inelegant may want to watch someone who knows how to use one. As far as swords go, they are about as good as it gets. To use one does require a higher degree of skill than your average straight blade, so if you want to discount them for that reason, that’s fair. Sean also pointed out that quality katanas are pretty scarce, so keep that in mind as well.
The downside of the baseball bat, or any club, mace or flail, is the splash effect. If you bust open a zed’s head, there’s going to be infected flesh flying everywhere. I’m not saying a bat is going to turn you into Gallagher, but you risk the chance of contamination through contact. So as a suggestion, add some sort of face shield to your gear.
As usual for his posts, AngryViking makes some very good points. A machete would be the best bet for Joe Average to avoid being on the menu. The Kukri design is awesome and full size ones (about 3′ blades) are used to decapitate oxen, so a zed should pose no problem at all.
Adam makes a very good point about bayonets, they are definitely a must-have item. KillerB and others are on track with the tomahawk as well.
After all that, I think the bat is the way to go for most people. It’s just a well-made club in this instance & is going to be common as water, therefore easily replaced if/when broken. It’s also light enough to carry a backup.
3-15 INF on 10 Jan 2010 at 12:49 pm #
yeah the bat is light, easy to carry and you can slide it into the loops in your pack out of the way. I’m more of the opinion of using any of the fine weapons mentioned here when there,s only one or two zeds to take out to save ammo and keep the noise down. I would try to to bash, slash, chop or stick, rather than shoot if all possible and use the guns when i’m in an oh-shit! situation. The bayonet is a great spear like weapon if it’s on a long enough rifle. I think a knife on the end of a pistol is silly.
FallenKnight on 10 Jan 2010 at 9:15 pm #
I agree, 3-15 INF, a pistol bayonet is ridiculous. I carry pocket knives with longer blades. Maybe if you wanted to stick a couple pistols in the ceiling in case of an emergency….
Semper Cogitant on 11 Jan 2010 at 7:18 pm #
Well, between the two I’d take a bat. A Katana looks cool, but decapitation is no where as easy as it looks on TV or in an RPG, even for the highly trained.
For the untrained (and that include people that have taken a few Kendo classes or whatever), it’s near to impossible and almost as dangerous to the swordsman as it is to the zed.
A bat takes no finesse, is easy to use, your target is the entire skull and can be hit from many angles instead of the middle of the neck that needs to be hit from a very specific angle.
The tactical Tomahawk is a good choice, slightly harder to use than the bat, but nowhere near as hard as the katana, deadlier than the bat since it takes less energy to puncture the skull than to really crush it. It also has numerous non combat uses that the other choices do not.
Another option to consider if you’re going to go for something that takes serious training and a pole arm of some sort, the force that can be generated in that big an arc is tremendous.
Adam on 12 Jan 2010 at 4:03 pm #
@fallenknight What do you mean, you have knives with a longer blade? That’s the same as saying “I have knives with a longer blade than knives”. Bayonets aren’t a fixed length, you can get 6″ bayonets, 10″ bayonets, 14″ bayonets etc etc. It’s variable. And it’s not stupid, because if the zombie is right in front of you, and you run out of bullets, you don’t have to waste time drawing the knife from wherever it is, you can just stab it through the eye. And that time you saved would be a thousand times more important if the zeds are running.
A.S.U. on 12 Jan 2010 at 4:46 pm #
My personal preference is a katana. I’m good with it, and I never cared much for a bulky bat. And I know, the sharpening occasionally is a downside. But at least if its sharpened, it doesn’t render you completely defenseless like if a baseball bat were to break. Plus, I have an immense sharpening grindstone in my basement. :D Also, in my opinion, knives suck for zeds, they don’t cause much damage to the brain, and they require you to get pretty close. They require a lot of force if you don’t know the proper angle to stab it through a skull. (90 degrees) So, I wouldn’t even bother picking one up, just dead weight.
A.S.U. on 12 Jan 2010 at 4:51 pm #
And everyone saying stuff like “baseball bats are easier to find!” should know that this is if you had a choice. Not what our most likely to pick up on the way. :)
3-15 INF on 12 Jan 2010 at 5:11 pm #
@Adam- as far as I know, and I may be wrong, the bayonet that Fallenknight is speaking of is the LaserLyte PB-1, which attaches to the rail of a pistol and has a 3 0r 4 inch blade. I’m not aware of any other product that could attatch to a pistol. Have you found some company that makes a 14 inch blade that attaches to a pistol? That seems like it would really suck to have on the end of my handgun. There’s got to be a better way than that. I like the idea of a bayonet against zeds, but why on a handgun? In that context, Fallenknights comment seems entirely plausible that he carries around a pocket knife with a blade longer than 3 or 4 inches.
FallenKnight on 12 Jan 2010 at 9:22 pm #
Sorry, Adam, I was talking about the LaserLyte and Ka-Bar pistol bayonets, each with a 2.75″ blade. So yes, my 4″ Voyager has a longer blade & is infinitely more useful both as a tool and a weapon. And good luck doing any significant damage to a zeds brainpan with a blade less than 3″ long through an eye socket with a nominal depth of about an inch.
FallenKnight on 12 Jan 2010 at 9:34 pm #
As a reinforcement to Adam’s original point about bayonets, I have one that’s about 16″ for my Enfields, and I think you would have a definite advantage, especially since you could bust down a door without changing your weapon. They’re also available for shotguns, and surplus bayos are really affordable, too.
Bayonet training actually teaches you to use your rifle/bayo combo to stab, slice, and bash, so you actually get the best of both worlds.
Kain - ZAC Weapon Consultant on 12 Jan 2010 at 10:15 pm #
I have to concur, a bayonet on a pistol is just plain silly. Almost as silly as one on an uzi, an M240, or a sniper rifle. Now, granted I’m not much of a fan the bayonet, not to say they are bad I just happen to think there are better ways in utilizing the weight of one of the damn things, like a quality field knife with a blade bigger than a pencil. On a pistol it really defeats the purpose of a pistol since I need to be able to access it, the pistol, in a hurry to target a foe and an extra two or three inches at the end of the muzzle slows me down in bring the gun to bear and makes reholstering a very dangerous proposition. Now, before you start going well you attach it when you draw. You an idiot, because if you’re doing that you are better off carrying a proper blade and actually having some reach and other uses for the damn thing other than just bling on your pistol, which is what I’m convinced a pistol bayonet is, bling, useless additions to something to look cool with no real purpose, I blame the video game generation for this abomination. Also, in respects to the bayonet, I doubt under extreme stress you are going to be able to place the blade, regardless of length, into the eye socket of a zombie, and even if you are able to do so once, being able to repeatedly do so is questionable. At least with an AR15 platform like what most people have. With a WWII era weapon, M1 Garand well, that’s a little different, and you do have a substantial amount of reach, compared, and the ability to work the rifle with the bayonet compared to an M4 style rifle with a 16 inch or less barrel plus all the doodads added to the damn thing(Yes, I am just as guilty as very one for adding extra to my rifle, though not as guilty as 3ID). That, and I truthfully don’t think the AR platform is up to the task of taking the punishment that continuously using a bayonet will take on a rifle, not like the older battle rifles, M1As, FALs, ect.
As for a melee weapon, I’ve worked with a katana and found them to handle quite nicely, in my opinion. That said, if I was going with a melee weapon I’d probably go with my bo staff, which I believe I’ve brought up before. I’ve got essentially the same reach as a katana, a little more in truth, as well as an easy way to make a spear if the need arises, along with having a walking staff among other things.
Also, Angryvikingman, what was you take on Apocalypse Man? I like some of the his ideas, though I have to disagree with the idea of heading for a city center, zombies or no zombies, too many nuts and gangs running around there. Though he gave so pretty good tips for survival.
“They won’t get me they won’t get me thought they never cease to try
they won’t get me they won’t get me I would rather fight and die
they won’t get me they won’t get me well my friend will they get you?
when they get you when they get you tell me what are you gonna do?”
Dropkick Murphys – The Gauntlet
Angryvikingman on 13 Jan 2010 at 12:07 am #
Apocalypse man….
I knew 90% of what he did on there, and the other 10% I’m to fat to attempt. I wasnt really impressed with the show, and only watched 3/4 of it. If its going to be a series, then it may get better. Really, a crowbar grappeling hook? My ass woulda ended up in the river. I knew about the steel wool and 9 volt trick. If YOU are the only person left, then fine, head into the cities, but aside from that I wouldn’t try it.
Kain - ZAC Weapon Consultant on 13 Jan 2010 at 12:28 am #
I liked the idea of using the crowbar for a grappling hook, not so much as using the crowbar for that job but the idea that he reinforced the idea of not looking at an object having only one use. That and the fact I’m pretty sure with the correct knots I could have done it, then again I’m a gamely one eighty and at the narrow end at the waist, though I have to get off my ass and start working out more. But, once I started watching the show I will admit to being a little bit biased, I liked Rudy in Generation Kill and I find it hard not to just like the guy. I get the impression that he’s just one of those generally good guys, granted it’s only a general impression. One issue I did have with Rudy was that he was a walking Oakley aid.
“They won’t get me they won’t get me thought they never cease to try
they won’t get me they won’t get me I would rather fight and die
they won’t get me they won’t get me well my friend will they get you?
when they get you when they get you tell me what are you gonna do?”
Dropkick Murphys – The Gauntlet
Ronin666 on 13 Jan 2010 at 4:26 am #
I have a Kabar pistol bayonet, I had to have one for the sillyness of it.
A.S.U, do NOT put your katana on a grindstone to sharpen it, you will destroy it, katana are polished sharp, not ground. There are plenty of websites and forums that will tell you how to do it using wet and dry paper instead of traditional stones.
A few people have mentioned pole arms, I think they have very limited use and would be more of a hindrance than a help when it came to evasion. Nice when you have the space, dam awkward on the run.
I agree on the machete idea, a good 18inch to 24 inch one, maybe with a saw back would be a very handy thing to have as a tool as well as a weapon.
Take a look in your garden shed, there are lots of good weapons in there for when the ammo runs out (and it will eventually), peasant army’s across the world have used garden/field tools as weapons for centuries.
The big issue is: when you buy a weapon, buy a good one, cheap shit will make you zombie shit.
Adam on 13 Jan 2010 at 9:40 am #
Well, sorry if I misunderstood, but I fear now you’re guilty of the same. I didn’t just mean modern state of the art pistol bayonets. If you look round any decent WW2 museums you’ll see revolvers with bayonets up to 8″, and I have a friend who restores old style weapons as a hobby, and have seen a flintlock pistol with a flick-knife style retractable bayonet that was 8″ long.
3-15 INF on 13 Jan 2010 at 10:13 am #
oh- an ancient revolver or flintlock pistol with a bayonet still doesn’t make any sense to me.
jay on 13 Jan 2010 at 4:04 pm #
good idear to have a bayonet on the end of a weapon so lets say you run out of bullets and havent got time to reload yeah you got your back up. and a bayonet on the end of a pistol yeah sounds silly but could save your life…..
Angryvikingman on 14 Jan 2010 at 12:04 am #
Not nearly as easily as my kukri. A flick of my wrist and its in my hand.
fatloserboi on 14 Jan 2010 at 4:37 am #
baseball bat is the way to go.. or even better a crowbar…
how are you supposed to bash or pry open a door with a katana??
I mean in the hands of an expert the katana pwns (zombie killing machine).. but for all intents and purpose a long crowbar will be by far the best options…
jay on 14 Jan 2010 at 8:31 am #
i agree with fatloserboi a crowbar is a multipurpose weapon
A.S.U. on 14 Jan 2010 at 5:56 pm #
@ Ronin666: Woops, yeah I realized the stupidity of that post after I posted it. Haha I was thinking of the wrong tool. I bought a kit with special paper for it after I realized that normal paper would suffice. My bad!!
Angryvikingman on 15 Jan 2010 at 12:16 am #
Jesus Christ! HOW MAN TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT?? A crowbar is NOT, NOT, NOT a good weapon by ANY stretch of the imagination!!
For god’s sake, do me (and everyone else who has a brain) a favor and go to lowes, pick up a 2 foot crowbar and swing it like a mad man for 30 seconds. If you aren’t completely winded, I’ll kiss my own ass. OR go to your gym/bedroom and just do some shadow boxing for 30 seconds. The weight of your own arms will tire you out that fast, imagine what a short, heavy, chunk of steel that is shorter and weighs more than any sword(besides a claymore) will do. A crowbar is a tool. Get one of the wide and flat 1.5 foot ones designed for prying and carry the damn thing in your pack. Its NOT a WEAPON, its a TOOL.
Rarely do I ever go off, but I’ve had enough of this crowbar crap…
Spend $20 and get a good machete. Its not like ANY of the stuff I suggest besides guns are expensive. I am on a budget just like everyone else, but I do the research and find the best thing for what I can spend and get that. I suggest you do the same. Next time you are eating steak at dinner, you could have had chicken and put enough money away to buy one thing that you need to survive the Zombiepocalypse. (Hypothetically)
fatloserboi on 15 Jan 2010 at 5:43 am #
if your in the middle of a zombie hoard I dont give a fuck what you have your in trouble…
but if there is 2 zombies in your way and you want to get through them and to safety the crowbar will more suffice..
the key to the crowbar is that you only need to bring that along..
if you have a machete you’ll still need a crowbar hanging off your sac to break-into buildings..
why not make it your primary then you won’t hafta carry around so much weight.. just my honest opinion…
if its an all out battle against the last of the zombie hoards.. then sure I’d take the bat over the katana any day.. case i know i can swing a bat.. or a sac of doorknobs for that matter.. I want to survive..
or even if I’m with a group as long as somebody has a crowbar I’ll be happy.. but if I’m alone.. the crow is a bat that can pry open doors.. I’ll the swiss arm knife over small fixed blade anyday…
StoneTree on 15 Jan 2010 at 9:01 am #
Gonna agree with Angryvikingman about the crowbar being too heavy. I work outside a lot, and have had some experience with general demolition work. I have used a crowbar for extended periods. Of course, for a crowbar, anything more than 15 minutes is an extended period. They are f-ing heavy. Also, they swing like a dead fish, and will try to slip out of your hands. Crowbars hate you, and they want you to die.
Every walmart, targe, costco, sam’s club, sports store, hobby shop, and 1 out of 5 suburban homes will contain at least one baseball bat. They are easy to find. I’ve got three, and I haven’t played ball in 8 years.
Yeah, swords are great if you know how to use them. No arguments. If you don’t know how to use them, then they are just pointy clubs. It has been my (limited) experience that an untrained swordsman is more likely to ruin a sword than an untrained “clubsman” to ruin a club.
So either buy a club (1 step), or get trained with a sword, then buy a sword (2 steps). I go with the easier option, use a club (baseball bat).
Arkham on 15 Jan 2010 at 9:29 am #
This is my first post, but I have been lurking on here for a few weeks. However I’m surprised no-one else has mentioned the war hammer.
First off they are cheap: I bought a Cold Steel war hammer from Bud K for less than $50. It came as a kit, but that’s ok because this way I can stain it myself. The pecan stain is drying nicely as we speak.
Secondly, its not that heavy. It weighs less overall than a bat and the hammer concentrates its force into a relatively small area. That makes it great for smashing the Zed’s skull with a low probability of breaking its skin.
Thirdly it does not need as much skill as a Katanna. While it does require some skill to use I would rather use the time I would have to devote to training with a katanna to rifle practice… but then I have very little time to devote to training since I have a fiancée and a stepdaughter.
Between work time, family time, and decompression time in the evenings I don’t have much time left to devote to training. Ahhh to be young again…
jay on 15 Jan 2010 at 1:11 pm #
crowbars are easy to swing you people just dont know how to use them lmao GOOD TOOL…..AND WEAPON CROWBAR………
jay on 15 Jan 2010 at 1:20 pm #
well angeryviking man sorry to say ud have to kiss your own ass a 2ft long crowbar is easy to swing for longer than 30seconds but whos says you need a 2ft one any size will do..as for….do me (and everyone else who has a brain)…..i got to laugh at that cos no one really gives a shit at what we all think including you we would all go our own ways do our own things when the z’s decides the take over the world………….
3-15 INF on 15 Jan 2010 at 1:55 pm #
I gotta go with Viking on this one- I actually went to the toolshed and grabbed my 2 ft crowbar (which doesn’t give much reach), and it felt ungainly in my hands, was heavy, and the hook on it was always turning the bar in my hands. Great to have in a burglary set, along with bolt cutters, and a hammer, but a bad choice for a weapon- especially a PRIMARY! I’d much rather have a hatchet or tomahawk. A Poly baseball bat will last as long, is light, can be swung easily, and can be stowed quickly.
Angryvikingman on 15 Jan 2010 at 2:09 pm #
Well, the 3 ft crowbar I use at work for prying up boards from the floor of trailers with extra grip gloves is far more unwieldy than ANY bat or sword I have ever used. And its unlikely that I will be kissing my own ass anytime soon as you did not perform the task I set before you. Swinging something that heavy for 30 seconds will leave your arms feeling like jello. My two-handed sword only weighs 3.5 lbs., and is 48 inches long. A 36 inch crowbar weighs 5.5 lbs and is unbalanced, which puts much of the weight into the end of the crowbar when its being swung, causing it to more likely than not to be pulled, or slip from your hands.
Sword is longer, better balanced, and far more devestating even in the hands of a novice.
A 1 foot crowbar only weighs 1.1lbs according to the retailers website, so buy one and put it IN your pack, use a sword, and you’ll still be under the weight of a 36 inch crowbar.
I’m just trying to impart some knowledge to you guys. If you die due to your “weapon” choices, then thats more loot for me.
Ronin666 on 15 Jan 2010 at 10:07 pm #
I have to agree with Angry, crowbars are too heavy if you want something with any reach. Too many Zombie Survival Guide readers here I think.
Also in a fight or flight situation you don’t have to “kill” the zed, knocking them down to clear a path will do. I keep making this point, if the whole world is infected, really killing them is a waste of time as there will always be more. Save your ammo for desperate times and for use against unfriendly survivors, for the zeds, the baseball bat or pick handle will do to clear a path. To clear a building a short sword is a good choice, a machete, wakasashi, what ever you feel comfortable with, but nothing overly long, as you don’t want it stuck in the roof when you go in for a strike. The Chinese Dao is a good 2 handed chopper, light and fast with a broad blade. Paul Chen sells one as does Cold Steel (they call theirs a Chinese Was sword I think).I can cut 3/8 wall cardboard tubes with my Chen version for an hour or so without tiring and I’m an old bastard.
http://www.casiberia.com/product_details.asp?id=SH1012
http://www.coldsteel.com/chinesewarsword.html
fatloserboi on 16 Jan 2010 at 4:59 am #
your 1 foot crowbar isn’t gonna pry shit…
i have a 3 footer in my hands right now, its heavy but all i need to do is swing it once.. smoke a zed in the head and i’ve got my path free…
alright I’ll reach into my pack for me 1 footer.. crap not enough torque to break this door…
keep running….
I’ve taken down a tree with my 3 footer.. fine it had a 2.5 inch diameter.. but still…
wtf are you gonna do with your machete?? you’ll break your blade on the door that you need in..
then you’ll pull out your 1 foot crowbar and have no torque and can’t get in.. oh too bad your fucking dead…
alright… most doors can be pry’d with a 1 footer.. but most doesnt = 100%..
I fucking wanna survive…
I’ll run than fight..
fatloserboi on 16 Jan 2010 at 5:03 am #
alrite I’ll tell you whatcha need to do with yall crowbars.. get some hockey tape and give yourself a nice little handle…
trust me… if your gonna keep crying about how its not a weapon… then I’ll smoke you in the head when you come at me as a zed with my fucking crowbar…
Adam on 16 Jan 2010 at 7:19 am #
What kind of doors are you all prying open, by the way? Most doors have windows that can be broken to allow entry, some can be kicked in, almost all can be broken down with a large object of somekind e.g. a bench, if you’re in a group, and almost every door lock can be picked, if you know how. I’m not seeing why any crowbar at all is a neccessity, but if it was, I’d take the smallest one possible.
Angryvikingman on 16 Jan 2010 at 12:21 pm #
You can pry open anything up to and including a steel security door with a 1 foot crowbar. If I cant get in throught the doors, then I can always go through the roof or wall. Pull off some shingles till I find a joint in the plywood, pry it up to free that edge, then cut a hole just big enough for me with my limb saw or hatchet. Breaking and entering is NOT that hard. You just have to ignore the obvious avenues of entry to avoid detection.
I’ll concede that fact that against SLOW shambler zombies that you can take your time with, a crowbar would work, but at a certain point swinging that behemoth will be too taxing and you’ll end up too worn out to swing it.
Now, if its fast zombies, then you’re so screwed.
Spliffsmommy on 16 Jan 2010 at 10:09 pm #
i would have to choose bashing in of the cranium..too much strength needed for the slashing,and probably requires too much swing room to be lethal to a dead attacker.
Ronin666 on 17 Jan 2010 at 12:51 am #
The roof is always the best entry point if you can get to it. Up there you are out of harms way and can take your time, if the building is housing zeds you can pop them off from above in safety. It also leaves the exterior of the building secure and doesn’t let others know you’re in there. Depending on the roofing material, a small pry bar will get you in to most places. Stanley (and I think Dead-On) make a small bar called a Cat’s Paw, they are light and strong. Weight savings on tools means you can carry better/heavier/more weapons/ammo. While it’s a good concept to have a group carry various specialty items remember at any time you may find your self alone and depending on what you have on you. Having said that the machete is looking better all the time.It’s a tool and a weapon,when ounces count multi use items are a big plus.
!-isaiah-!#123 on 19 Jan 2010 at 1:03 pm #
i agree with ronin666 because the roof is the best way to survive because there is no way for the zombies to get on the roof and if some how they do all you have to do is bash there brains out.
ThatScoutKid on 22 Jan 2010 at 1:45 am #
i cant figure out how to put together my british m-58 rucksack. could any1 help me out?
Angryvikingman on 23 Jan 2010 at 4:58 am #
Cant find any instructions on the net?
Wow, I cant find any either. Didnt it come with instructions?
jay on 23 Jan 2010 at 8:49 am #
ha ha ha
jay on 23 Jan 2010 at 8:49 am #
ha ha ha lol
Angryvikingman on 23 Jan 2010 at 10:14 am #
I was actually being serious. Its rare that I cant find what I’m looking for.
Kain - ZAC Weapon Consultant on 23 Jan 2010 at 4:49 pm #
Here check this site. It may help, I truthfully don’t know. If it doesn’t help, my advice would be to just screw with it until you get it to where it’s comfortable, which you’ll likely do anyway, regardless of instructions. That’s what most end up doing with Molle gear, it’s never right the first time.
http://server.microlite16.com/josephs-militaria-and-homefront-collection.co.uk/PAGE67.HTML
“They won’t get me they won’t get me thought they never cease to try
they won’t get me they won’t get me I would rather fight and die
they won’t get me they won’t get me well my friend will they get you?
when they get you when they get you tell me what are you gonna do?”
Dropkick Murphys – The Gauntlet
ThatScoutKid on 26 Jan 2010 at 10:33 pm #
yea it came with instructions but they suck. cant see shit with them. im going to try and build it off the site kain gave me but if i cant im gonna say fuck it and sell it. maby buy a molle vest and get a bunch of pouches for it. btw thank you viking and kain
dark samuri on 27 Jan 2010 at 1:17 pm #
dude its “use your head cut off theirs!”,not “use your head beat theirs”
jay on 28 Jan 2010 at 4:15 pm #
ThatScoutKid let me know if you sell it.
Simo on 17 Feb 2010 at 8:59 pm #
Well I have got a problem….
I live in Australia. There just aren’t any guns here! I mean, the fact that most of our country is uninhabited helps in terms of how many zeds I need to escape, but seriously, not good for long range.
On the plus side, I can put a step up on the wussy baseball bat debate. All of OUR houses have Cricket Bats and they would dominate (i mean, it worked in shawn of the dead, right?) I have got a few Katanas but gee, they are totally untrustworthy because I have no idea how real they are. But baseball bat plus the machete in the shed should be fine.
However, for long range, I am really really pulling at straws… But the book 666 likes to keep mentioning (with good reason) the Zombie Survival Guide mentioned the possiblitiy of archery, the good old fashioned bow and arrow. The campsite I work at has a mad stockpile with some sweet compound bows. And I’ve got my Cert III in archery and can nail moving targets (pumpkins in the last instance) at about 15-25 meters (I got no idea what that is in feet).
But yeah, feedback?
Simo on 17 Feb 2010 at 9:02 pm #
Ps: I think it was Viking a while back who suggested it and I gotta say, the Roman Spear (Pilum) would be sweeet (and okay getting past customs).
3-15 INF on 21 Feb 2010 at 1:45 pm #
THAT would be me mentioning the pilum (takes bow)- i guess Angryvikingman is just a more memorable name
Angryvikingman on 21 Feb 2010 at 3:03 pm #
Yeah, wasnt me who suggested it. The Pilum was made of soft metal so it would bend after its first use, thus rendering it unusable for a return flight.(According to history channel documentary, and wikipedia) If you want a good spear, try the spears from Cold Steel. They’re made to better standards than you’re likely to find elsewhere.
Simo on 21 Feb 2010 at 6:39 pm #
Thanks! And sorry 3-15 INF, no offense meant.
3-15 INF on 22 Feb 2010 at 4:28 pm #
No Prob man- yeah the pilums were made out of Iron with the set pins off center so that it would bend if thrown. Made out of the same thing your average wrought iron fence is made from ( the sharp end, that is) I mentioned it because they could be dismantled and put in the pack and they fly pretty straight.
Yeah I already mentioned the Cold Steel Boar Spear. The advantage to a spear comes in defending a narrow entrance like a doorway or halway. You can stab DEEP into a face that stupidly pokes around a corner very quickly, withdraw, and stab again. Think Thermopolea and the Spartans. A couple of guys with spears could be as effective with spears as with guns, believe it or not. Save the ammo for the bad guys that shoot back!
G-Uman on 02 Mar 2010 at 10:17 am #
Wow been awhile since ive been on on…..but yeah alright first off sup everybody second Why in the hell would you use a crowbar when there are other options that wont get you kill as easily i mean i like crowbars i had to work with them alot could be a great 3ft spear but by then it would prolly get stuck in some skull. Now back to the matter at hand baseball bat or Katana. i would take a baseball bat i mean dont get me wrong Katanas are very kick arse and are one of my favorite fuedel weapons but……good luck finding replacments on the run so yeah baseball bat wins because of the sheer number of them in the US. But i do like the War Hammer idea if i could get my hands on one with having to improvise it the i would give a better rant.
ThatScoutKid on 04 Mar 2010 at 10:47 pm #
im thinkin sell…