Guns, Guns, Guns!
A brief listing and categorization of weapons to help you survive the
Zombiepocalypse.
There are numerous weapons that a person can choose to defend themselves
during the Zombiepocalypse. This is a short list of weapons that are more
commonly available in the United States, as this is where the majority of our
readers live. (Sorry to the Europeans and Aussies, your governments want you to
be defenseless.)
Each type of weapon will categorized and its strengths and weaknesses will be
listed.
Rifles:
a barrel that has a helical groove or pattern of grooves ("rifling") cut
into the barrel walls. The raised areas of the rifling are called
"lands," which make contact with the projectile (for small arms usage,
called a bullet), imparting spin around an axis corresponding to the
orientation of the weapon. When the projectile leaves the barrel, the
spin averages out curve from imperfections improving accuracy and
prevents tumbling which improves range, in the same way that a properly
thrown American football or rugby ball behaves. The word "rifle"
originally referred to the grooving, and a rifle was called a "rifled
gun." Rifles are used in warfare, hunting and shooting sports.
Typically, a bullet is propelled by the contained deflagration of an
explosive compound (originally black powder, later cordite, and now
nitrocellulose), although other means such as compressed air are used in
air rifles, which are popular for vermin control, hunting small game,
formal target shooting and casual shooting ("plinking").
In most armed forces the term "gun" is incorrect when referring to
small arms; in the military, the word "gun" means an artillery piece or
crew-served machine gun. Furthermore, in many works of fiction a rifle
refers to any weapon that has a stock and is shouldered before firing,
even if the weapon is not rifled or does not fire solid projectiles.
(e.g. a "laser rifle")
Formerly, rifles only fired a single projectile with each squeeze of
the trigger. Modern assault rifles are capable of firing more than one
round per trigger squeeze; some fire in a fully automatic mode and
others are limited to bursts of three to five rounds per squeeze. Thus,
modern assault rifles overlap somewhat with machine guns. In fact, many
light machine guns (such as the Russian RPK) are adaptations of existing
assault rifle designs. Generally, the difference between an automatic
rifle and a machine gun comes down to weight and feed system; rifles,
with their relatively light components (which overheat quickly) and
small magazines, are incapable of sustained automatic fire in the way
that machine guns are. While machine guns may require more than one
operator, the rifle is an individual weapon.
Bolt Action Rifles:
bolt is operated manually by the opening and closing of the breech
(barrel) with a small handle, most commonly placed on the right-hand
side of the weapon (for right-handed users). As the handle is operated,
the bolt is unlocked, the breech is opened, the spent shell casing is
withdrawn and ejected, the firing pin is cocked (this occurs either on
the opening or closing of the bolt, depending on design), and finally a
new round/shell (if available) is placed into the breech and the bolt
closed. Bolt action firearms are most often rifles, but there are some
bolt-action shotguns and a few handguns as well. Examples of this system
date as far back as the early 19th century, notably in the Dreyse needle
gun. From the late 19th century, all the way through both World Wars,
the bolt-action rifle was the standard infantry firearm for most of the
world’s militaries.
In military use, the bolt action has been mostly
replaced by semi-automatic and selective fire weapons, though the bolt
action remains the dominant design in dedicated sniper rifles. Bolt
action firearms are still very popular for hunting and target practice.
Compared to most other manually-operated firearm actions, it offers an
excellent balance of strength (allowing powerful chamberings),
simplicity, and potential accuracy, all with a light weight and low
cost. The major disadvantage is a slightly lower practical rate of fire
than other alternatives, but this is not a critical factor in many types
of hunting and target shooting. This type of rifle is capable of
accurate shots at over a mile.
ZAC suggests these manufacturers:
Remington
Winchester
Lever Action Rifles:
located around the trigger guard area, (often including the trigger
guard itself) to load fresh cartridges into the chamber of the barrel
when the lever is worked. Most lever-action weapons are rifles, but
lever-action shotguns and a few pistols have also been made. One of the
most famous lever-action firearm is undoubtedly the Winchester rifle,
but many manufacturers–notably Marlin and Savage–also produce
lever-action rifles. Mossberg produces the 464 in center fire .30-30 and
rim fire .22. While the term lever-action generally implies a
repeating firearm, it is also sometimes applied to a variety of
single-shot, or falling-block actions that use a lever for cycling, such
as the Martini-Henry or the Ruger No. 1. This type of fire arm can fire
a variety of cartridges including pistol and large caliber rifle rounds.
It has a higher capacity than the bolt action rifle and a higher rate of
fire. It is also slightly less accurate at range when compared with the
bolt action rifle, but capable of accurate shots of over 500 meters.
ZAC suggests the line of Henry Rifles if this is your preferred type of weapon.
Semi Auto Rifles:
bullet each time the trigger is pulled, automatically ejects the spent
cartridge, chambers a fresh cartridge from its magazine, and is
immediately ready to fire another shot. They may be operated by a number
of mechanisms, all of which derive their power from the explosion of the
powder in the cartridge that also fires the bullet. Historically, the
self-loading design was the successor to the repeating rifle, which
stored a number of cartridges within the weapon, but required manual
action to load a fresh cartridge before each shot. Automatically loading
the next round more easily allows for rapid fire. These rifles are also
commonly known as self-loading rifles (‘SLR’) or auto-loading rifles.
A semi-automatic rifle is distinguished from a fully automatic rifle or
machine gun in that it can only fire once each time the trigger is
pulled. In some contexts, the term "automatic rifle" may refer to a
semi-automatic/self-loading rifle, not a fully automatic rifle. The
magazine in a semi-automatic rifle is usually of a box-type which
protrudes underneath the receiver and feeds cartridges vertically into
the action. These may be fixed (as with M1 Garand, in which case
cartridges are loaded from the top of the weapon, with the bolt locked
back. Most modern designs use a detachable magazine, which is removed
for reloading. Some detachable-magazine rifles, such as the M14, can
also be top-loaded. Some designs use a horizontal tubular magazine
similar to lever-action and pump-action weapons, which may be located
underneath the barrel or in the butt stock. These rifles, when properly
outfitted and sighted, are accurate to 1000+ meters and are capable of
accurate sustained fire allowing the user to engage multiple targets at
range. However, the ability to fire rapidly can cause inexperienced
users to waste ammo.
ZAC suggests the AR-15 and these manufacturers:
Smith &Wesson
DPMS
Rock River Arms
Stag Arms
Full Auto Rifles:
Assuming you stumble into a cache of military weapons, you may find these:
M4 Carbine
M-249 Saw
M-240B
M2 .50 cal
In certain situations, these weapons are incredibly effective, but they waste
a LOT of ammo. Consider the application of these weapons carefully before
deploying them against the undead hordes.
Shotguns:
or historically as a fowling piece) is a firearm that is usually
designed to be fired from the shoulder, which uses the energy of a fixed
shell to fire a number of small spherical pellets called shot, or a
solid projectile called a slug. Shotguns come in a wide variety of
sizes, ranging from 5.5 mm (.22 inch) bore up to 5 cm (2 inch) bore, and
in a range of firearm operating mechanisms, including breech loading,
single-barreled, double or combination gun, pump-action, bolt-, and
lever-action, semi-automatic, and even fully-automatic variants.
A
shotgun is generally a smoothbore firearm, which means that the inside
of the barrel is not rifled. Preceding smoothbore firearms, such as the
musket, were widely used by armies in the 18th century. The direct
ancestor to the shotgun, the blunderbuss, was also used in a similar
variety of roles from self defence to riot control. It was often used by
cavalry troops due to its generally shorter length and ease of use, as
well as by coachmen for its substantial power. However, in the 19th
century, these weapons were largely replaced on the battlefield with
breechloading rifled firearms, which were more accurate over longer
ranges. The military value of shotguns was rediscovered in the First
World War, when American forces used 12-gauge pump action shotguns in
close-quarters trench fighting to great effect. Since then, it has been
used in a variety of roles in civilian, law enforcement, and military
applications.
The shot pellets from a shotgun spread upon leaving the barrel, and
the power of the burning charge is divided among the pellets, which
means that the energy of any one ball of shot is fairly low. In a
hunting context, this makes shotguns useful primarily for hunting birds
and other small game. However, in a military or law enforcement context,
the large number of projectiles makes the shotgun useful as a close
quarters combat weapon or a defensive weapon. Limitations for this
weapon are low round count and reload times. However, there are a few
magazine fed shotguns that allow for fast shots, and quick reloads.
For shotguns, ZAC recommends the
Saiga 12
Sub machineguns:
pistol cartridges. It combines the automatic fire of a machine gun with
the cartridge of a pistol. An assault rifle, in contrast, uses an
intermediate-power cartridge with more power than a pistol but less than
a standard rifle or battle rifle. These weapons have the same strengths
and weaknesses as their rifle counterparts with the exception that their
range is limited to around 200 meters with a properly calibrated scope.
Generally they are used for close quarters engagements under 100 meters.
Weapons of this type that are available to the general public are:
H&K MP5/94 (94 is civilian version)
H&K USC/UMP
FN PS90
Thompson (Tommy Gun)
TDI Vector/Kriss super V
You may have to do some paperwork and go through a few months of red tape
waiting to get some of these, but you can get them. All of the civilian versions
of these guns can be legally converted into their military counterparts with
simple adjustments and a parts kit.
Pistols:
Revolvers
With the development of the revolver in the 19th century, gunsmiths
had finally achieved the goal of a practical capability for delivering
multiple loads to one handgun barrel in quick succession. Revolvers feed
ammunition via the rotation of a cartridge-filled cylinder, in which
each cartridge is contained in its own ignition chamber, and is
sequentially brought into alignment with the weapon’s barrel by a
mechanism linked to the weapon’s trigger (double-action) or its hammer
(single-action). These nominally cylindrical chambers, usually numbering
between five and eight depending on the size of the revolver and the
size of the cartridge being fired, are bored through the cylinder so
that their axes are parallel to the cylinder’s axis of rotation; thus,
as the cylinder rotates, the chambers revolve about the cylinder’s axis.
There is a hybrid form of the revolver, known as the automatic
revolver, which combines the revolving chamber concept of the
conventional revolver with the recoil-harnessing, self-cycling ability
of the semi-automatic pistol. Weapons of this type are rare, as the
technology was quickly rendered obsolete by a combination of the
double-action revolver and the semi-automatic pistol.
Lever action pistols
The first lever action pistols were based on a Horace Smith and
Daniel B. Wesson patent of 1854. The Smith & Wesson pistols were made in
Norwich, Connecticut 1854-55. In 1855, Oliver F. Winchester became an
active investor and H. Smith and D.B. Wesson both dropped out of the
enterprise. In July 1855, the name was changed to Volcanic Repeating
Arms Company, and later to New Haven Arms Company, opening an important
chapter in Winchester’s history. The production of the Volcanic pistols
lasted until 1860. Two models were produced: The Navy Pistol .41 cal.
with 6" / 8" / 16 " barrels and a Pocket Pistol .31 cal. with 3½" / 6"
barrels.
Semi-automatic pistols
The next development in handgun history after a practical revolver
was the development of the semi-automatic pistol, which uses the energy
of one shot to reload the chamber for the next. Typically recoil energy
from a fired round is mechanically harnessed; however, larger calibers
may also be gas operated (e.g. Desert Eagle). After a round is fired,
the pistol will cycle, ejecting the spent casing and chambering a new
round from the magazine, allowing another shot to take place
immediately.
Some terms that have been, or still are, used as synonyms for
"semi-automatic pistol" are automatic pistol, autopistol,
autoloader, self-loading pistol and selfloader.
Remember, Revolvers hold few bullets and the rate of fire is very slow,
but they rarely ever malfunction. Lever action pistols… ???
Generally you’re going to be better off if you use a pistol with a
capacity of 10 or more bullets, semi auto reloads faster, and holds more
rounds, so you do the math. Its your ass on the line.
Machine pistols
A machine pistol is generally defined as a firearm designed to be
fired with one hand, and capable of fully automatic or selective fire.
While there are a number of machine pistols such as the Glock 18 and
later models of the Mauser C96, these are rare; the light weight, small
size, and extremely rapid rates of fire of a machine pistol make them
difficult to control, making the larger and heavier submachine gun a
better choice in cases where the small size of a machine pistol is not
needed. Most machine pistols can attach a shoulder stock (the Heckler &
Koch VP70 would only fire single rounds at a time unless the stock was
attached); others, such as the Beretta 93R, add a forward handgrip.
Either of these additions technically create a legal non-pistol under
the US National Firearms Act, as pistols are by definition designed to
be fired with one hand. The addition of a stock or forward handgrip is
considered a design change that creates either a short-barreled rifle or
any other weapon, and therefore such additions are generally only found
on legal machine guns.
Edged Weapons:
First and foremost, seek proper training in the use of a blade before you
hurt yourself or someone else with it. (yeah, you heard me)
For edged weaponry, ZAC suggests something over 15 inches in length. Everyone
has their own style, so we won’t say what edged weapon is the best. Its up to
the user to decide.
Some fine examples are:
The Kukri
The Bowie Knife
The Machete (The ones from Cold Steel are particularly nice)
The Longsword
The Katana (Mall Ninja Alert! Anything you got at the mall or flea market won’t last more than a few good whacks on a zombie. Get something hand forged, or quality made)
This has been a brief dissertation on the types of weapons you may encounter after Z-Day.
Comments (208)








McLuvin on 08 Nov 2010 at 10:03 am #
Some good info Viking. I think a couple diagrams of the different types of actions would help illustrate what you are describing to our lesser experienced readers.
It’s good to know that they will be prepared to use the Volcanic if they stumble upon one(got a little sidetracked I think, haha).
Angryvikingman on 08 Nov 2010 at 1:17 pm #
Those were really the only lever action pistols I could think of. Just wanted to include every type. I only knew about the Volcanic because of Red Dead Redemption. Guess video games do teach you something.
Docwade on 08 Nov 2010 at 10:47 pm #
It had a pretty good spread on tales of the gun too.
Kain - ZAC Weapon Consultant on 08 Nov 2010 at 11:44 pm #
Docwade’s right, when you brought up the Volcanic that was the first thing that popped into my head, and I own Red Dead Redemption. Though on a flip side there is one company I know of that is making a lever action pistol based off of the Winchester model 94, so the blurb isn’t a total waste since ammo for a volcanic is hard to find to say the very least. Although the admin in me wants to yell at you for throwing in edged weapons into an article about firearms, especially when you could have easily done a completely different article on just them, but now I’m just nitpicking.
On another note, you might want to reconsider the recommendation for the Remington bolt rifles. Don’t know if you’ve heard what been going on with them as of late, but lets just say that there is a defect in their flagship design that they have known about for sixty years and have not taken any steps to fix it. To fix it now would cost more than the net worth of the company.
“They won’t get me they won’t get me thought they never cease to try
they won’t get me they won’t get me I would rather fight and die
they won’t get me they won’t get me well my friend will they get you?
when they get you when they get you tell me what are you gonna do?”
Dropkick Murphys – The Gauntlet
Angryvikingman on 09 Nov 2010 at 1:42 am #
Meh… I can always amend the name of the article, and maybe I’ll do another article just on edged weapons. As for the design flaw, I have a 50 year old remington .243, I’ve never had a problem with it, and its hella accurate.
McLuvin on 09 Nov 2010 at 9:49 am #
I think the problem with Remingtons is being blown way out of proportion. Any gun can have the same problems if a bad trigger job has been done on it, or if the sear interface gets rusty or too dirty. This is not a new issue. Literally millions of these rifles have had no problems.
As for lever action handguns
The “Mare’s Leg” of Wanted fame is being reproduced by a couple companies now. The MOA Maximum has been around for years. It’s a single shot with a lever operating the breach. This type of weapon is obscure enough to safely be excluded from survival discussion.
Kain - ZAC Weapon Consultant on 09 Nov 2010 at 7:37 pm #
True, Remington isn’t the only manufacture that has had a defect and neither is the issue apparently found in every rifle. Either that or the ease by which it can be triggered very well may be more difficult than it appears to be. The main problem that I see they are going to have is that they were told and knew about the possible defect way back in the day, and two people have been killed because of it. Put those two things together and you have a recipe for them to lose their shirts, or at the very least have some really bad press from it. Now if I recall correctly there are no laws on the books saying a gun company must recall a defective item, so, if I am correct, the only thing that Remington can be sued over is wrongful death, and depending on the judge that might well be spotty, supposing it does go to court and isn’t settled outside of it. Just a thought.
“They won’t get me they won’t get me thought they never cease to try
they won’t get me they won’t get me I would rather fight and die
they won’t get me they won’t get me well my friend will they get you?
when they get you when they get you tell me what are you gonna do?”
Dropkick Murphys – The Gauntlet
big bear29 on 09 Nov 2010 at 8:19 pm #
@ Kain – ZAC Weapon Consultant
If there have only been two deaths in sixty years the company could site that the malfunction in the gun occured because of a failure to properly maintain the gun by the owner . If there have been enough complaints about it or injuries they will likely end up settling out of court .
big bear29 on 10 Nov 2010 at 1:39 pm #
One type of gun which would be fun to have and great at destroying large groups of the undead , although it would be impossible to get . The M-29 and M-28 Davy Crockett Weapon system , it is a tactical nuclear recoilless gun made during the cold war to stop enemy troops , sort of like the MIRV in the game fallout 3 . It fired the M-388 , a selectable yield nuke equivalent to 10 to 20 tons of tnt and it could be fired at targets 1.25 to 2.5 miles away . The downside is that it had poor accuracy , made a lot of radiation which lasted 48 hrs , the ammo was heavy as hell ( 51 lbs per rocket ) and I think the only intact launcher left is in the United States Army Ordnance Museum . But if you could get one with better accuracy and nukes that did more damage and generated less radiation , you could mount it on a vehicle and have a blast . This weapon could actually make the outbreak fun . Who out there wouldn’t enjoy having a weapon that could level a neighborhood full of zombies .
I know I’m probably going to catch hell from some of the other posters but I just had to put that out there .
McLuvin on 10 Nov 2010 at 2:02 pm #
Wow!
Somebody plays too many video games.
Not only do you want to use an antiquated, obsolete weapon that never proved itself, you want to somehow give it more accuracy, more power, and reduce that pesky radiation. Better get on that now so you don’t have to figure that all out while avoiding the undead. While you are wishing why don’t you have the genie get you a ray gun and a monster truck.
3ID on 10 Nov 2010 at 5:40 pm #
YES a Genie i would like to have Master Chiefs Armor and the M41A Pulse Rifle that sweet gun from aliens HEY WAIT A MINUTE McLuvin lied about the the Genie man that sucks well in that case i will take my AR thank you
big bear29 on 10 Nov 2010 at 8:52 pm #
I’ll pass on the ray gun and monster truck , crappy gas mileage . But if you see the genie tell him I’ll take the BFG from doom and the THOR mech from starcraft 2 .
HMPlatinum on 10 Nov 2010 at 10:18 pm #
Guns, guns, guns
…and knives?
Good article AVM.
I’ll take a genie.
After that, the rest is just details.
Creeper on 18 Nov 2010 at 11:11 am #
Sorry no mechs or monster trucks but how about a Jeep wrangler with a Browning 1919 mounted to the roll cage on a swivel? … I have eccentric friends.
ronald on 18 Nov 2010 at 7:53 pm #
Hey the best are the m 16 or ar 15 but remember always that the axe is the best doesn’t run out of ammo and or gas
ronald on 18 Nov 2010 at 9:52 pm #
Hey a the 12-gauge is good but you needto get close so the fal or ak74 47 will do good also don’t forget to bring a side arm such as a 9mm or 1911 45 cal. Pistol
Docwade on 21 Nov 2010 at 9:27 am #
Fal’s are too heavy. Are you anticipating assaulting zombie bunkers in Argentina? AK’s are good, comparable to standard fixed blade field knife. It doesn’t do any individual job great, but it’ll get the job done. I like the 74 round for popping zombie heads, but I think ammo will be a big problem shortly after the outbreak.
And ammo availability will likely dicate what you will be carrying, I believe the longest lived round at Z+3 years will be the 22lr. There is already a ton of it in circulation, every family in the sticks has one, and you can carry a thousand rounds without straining your egg bag. You’ll also most likely run into some scattered partial boxes of 38spl and 12 gauge bird shot during scouting/foraging in abandoned homes. Of course, that doesn’t mean one shouldn’t keep whatever you find as far as firearms go. Hell, I’m sure I’ll rebuild my odd caliber collection while rummaging just in case I find a box of 357sig, 460 roland, 6.8spc, etc etc.
3ID – you might want to purchase those press dies that enable you to form 22lr casings into 223 projectile hulls then you fill them with melted lead. You’ll eventually be reloading your 223 brass.
Angryvikingman on 23 Nov 2010 at 1:18 pm #
I happen to like the FAL. It was my first Assault rifle. Not too heavy for a big fella like me. Didn’t really like the 20 round mags though. The “Para Congo” (Short barrel and folding stock) is lighter and still gives you the punch of the 7.62×51 in a close quarters rifle.
Docwade on 23 Nov 2010 at 3:55 pm #
Why the he’ll would you want a full power, long range round for CQC? If given the choice between any version of a fal, and a 9mm carbine, I would choose the latter for sheer weight. Angry, your choice in rifles seems to always go back to you being able to lift 19 tons and carry it for 17 days while also setting snares. 308 is just not the round of choice. Maybe you should start a “choose your perfect z-day” thread.
McLuvin on 23 Nov 2010 at 4:02 pm #
I’d much rather have a medium range cartridge. An AR or even an AK has less recoil and muzzle blast along with much lighter ammo so I can carry more. The FAL is a good design for WWII or Korea, but wars aren’t usually waged like that anymore. Zombie fighting isn’t going to be at 800 yards. If they are that far away I’m avoiding them.
Docwade on 23 Nov 2010 at 4:33 pm #
I liked the fall too. I’ve owned three. Still not my first choice.
Angryvikingman on 27 Nov 2010 at 12:16 am #
The recoil from a FAL is about the same as that of an AK. (To me.)As long as you know how to hold the gun correctly the recoil shouldn’t be a problem. As far as me being able to carry heavy stuff and walk forever, yeah, I can do that. I carried my FAL into the woods many times, and carried deer out on a packboard by myself plenty of times. So I was carrying 80+ pounds of meat and my FAL. Most cases had to walk about 1/2- 1 mile with it. Not too bad. I could never afford a 4 wheeler to do all my heavy lifting, so I’ve been carrying game out of the woods the hard way since I was a kid. Maybe all of you were raised too soft. I grew up on the farm and I was taking care of animals and stringing barbwire since I was knee high to a grasshopper. Also, we only had wood heat until I was 12, so I cut down trees, cut up trees, stacked, hauled and restacked wood, then split it all before use. After about 30 years of hard labor, I may be fat, but I’m far from out of shape. I can pick up my 140lb wife with one arm and lift a mini cooper, so get over it, I’m not exaggerating by any means. I’ve got far better things to do than get on here and lie to a bunch of people that I don’t even know.
Docwade on 27 Nov 2010 at 12:55 pm #
Well…
I’m not saying you can’t carry 80 lbs of meat 1/2 to 1 mile with a FAL and a standard fall loadout…but I doubt ANYONE could do it on the run for ANY extended length of time. Every so often, you’re going to have to haul ass, not leisurely treck. The fal doesn’t do anything magical for zombies a lighter round wouldn’t do also. Fal + 200-400 rounds vs 223 or 9mm carbine with the same amount of amm…I’m choosing the lighter load that still causes zed heads to explode. Oh, and no one was botching about recoil.
Docwade on 27 Nov 2010 at 1:00 pm #
P.S. Aren’t you only about thirty? Stringing a lot of barbwire in them huggies?
Morgan. on 27 Nov 2010 at 2:48 pm #
Bigbear… there’s one little problem with you dream weapon aka the nuke grenade launcher. When you fire that weapon system you’re well inside the initial blast. You would be vaporized. And the best weapons you could carry would be the AK-47 and a 1911. The 7.62×39 is very popular and used worldwide. Both guns are highly reliable and ammo will always be easy to find.
Angryvikingman on 28 Nov 2010 at 2:09 am #
I am 30. I was pulling the barbwire roller on the ground helping my dad when I was 5, so yeah, I started early.
Docwade on 28 Nov 2010 at 7:17 am #
Well, see, now you’ve gone and done it. You made me start missing my old fals and I had to pick up another one. I’ll be fondling a shiney new dsa sa58 this morning. I’m thinking of swapping barrels to the 13″ with pinned browning slit muzzle brake just for the fireball. But I’ll probably just put a dsa top rail on it.
ronald on 29 Nov 2010 at 1:00 am #
Well those are good until the ammo runs out in that case pick up the shells to reload them u can melt the metal down and make the bullets but the problem is gun powder it gets low but just go to your melee weapon and kil them bitches yay
big bear29 on 29 Nov 2010 at 4:02 pm #
Reading the last eleven posts I have to agree with you guys about not needing the largest guns available to kill the zombies . But I also have to wonder if its because you are trying to free up some weight to carry more ammo or if its because a few of you are the type that get winded carrying groceries from your car to your front door .
Angryvikingman on 29 Nov 2010 at 5:07 pm #
If I KNEW for certain that 22lr would drop zombies every time, I’d carry at least 1k rounds at all times, and there would be no argument.
Docwade on 29 Nov 2010 at 7:01 pm #
True, true on the 22lr and the head shot. And I suppose since we really aren’t talking about a protracted fire fight with the undead, but more of a surgical encounter, one can carry what they want. However, a 308 battle rifle is not a good choice for the undead. Everything is against it: too heavy, LARGE size, ammo is heavy also, range is wasted, standard barrel length is excessive if employed in cqc or building clearing, the muzzle blast demands ear protection inside buildings which makes you vulnerable.
Angryvikingman on 29 Nov 2010 at 7:15 pm #
Sheeeeeeeeeeeeyat, even a 22 is too loud indoors, but a 308 you can feel the concussion from 10 feet away indoors, so it would be horrible for indoor cqc, but in the brush you cant beat it. Thats a big reason the africans use it, it’ll blow through anything. So indoors its bad, in the woods its good.
Morgan. on 29 Nov 2010 at 8:52 pm #
I’ve fired a .38 Special and a M-4 indoors. It’s not unbearable but I’d deffinitly put in hearing protection given the situation. At the same time you’re gonna want to be able to hear Z’s shuffling up behind you. Maybe some an automatic hearing pro would be an order. The kind the allows you to hear everything under a certain decible level and shuts out extremely loud noise.
Docwade on 29 Nov 2010 at 8:54 pm #
Yeah, but we’re only trying to pop zed heads and the occasional human aggressor. It’s a tool in the tool box. The job isn’t trying to establish control of a food aid station in some African s*** hole. Low profile, low signature, movement as needed, and holing up without detection will become the game. Remember, people will still be around, and every item you leave in the field will tell someone passing by you were there. Snares, though useful will tell someone you will be back. Beware the ambush.
McLuvin on 29 Nov 2010 at 9:21 pm #
Just to be an asshole, I’m going to suggest that no one can participate in an ammo or gun discussion unless they posted pics in the Real Loadout thread. It is obvious most people on this site don’t own firearms and don’t have much knowledge on the subject. This rule would keep the arguments realistic and concise.
big bear29 on 29 Nov 2010 at 9:24 pm #
A 22lr SHOULD be sufficient to kill zombies with . These bullets have been used by assasins and mafia hit men for the last century . They can penetrate the human skull but they expend much of their force during the initial penetration and don’t have the power to punch out the other side , what they do is just bounce around the inside of the skull like an out of control blender , when this happens the bullet starts to break up into smaller fragments and they are also bouncing around , this will literally reduce the brain to a slimey pile of goop . I have seen autoposy videos of people who have been shot in the head by 22 rounds and when they would open up the persons head the brains tended to leak out onto the floor because they had been turned a runnie paste by the bullet fragments ricocheting around the inside of the skull .
That being said I have also heard of a few times when people would get shot in the head and the bullet would not penetrate the skull but it would still cause some damage to their face .
anothermike on 30 Nov 2010 at 5:15 am #
Something to keep in mind, 308 is a common round in the US. Between hunters and military it’ll be one of your most available rounds for resupply. 22LR and 223 should also be towards the top of the list for rifles because of how available the ammo will be.
I think I like the idea of getting a carbine and pistol in the same pistol caliber like 357 or 45. Two weapons, one type of ammo. I don’t know how well that would actually work though.
Docwade on 30 Nov 2010 at 10:21 am #
Soooo, your statement produces no resolution to the prior post. We wont know if the 22lr will be sufficient. I believe it will be, though off axis hits will only wound and require follow up shots. The 22lr does not behave as you have detailed after passing through the skull. The autopsy result you saw was probably due to time and conditions of decomposition prior to autopsy than an “ultimax Whirling Dervish” round.
big bear29 on 30 Nov 2010 at 10:25 am #
Only eight people posted pics of their guns and I’m pretty sure that there are more than eight people in the world who own and have experience with guns . I should know because I’m one of them but I felt no need to show off what I got and I prefer not to let the whole world know what I have stashed at my place .
big bear29 on 30 Nov 2010 at 10:59 am #
@Docwade
If your bullet strikes the target at a steep angle or if you are shooting at a thicker section of the skull the bullet can fail to penetrate which will require follow up shots . However due to the fact that you can carry more of these bullets than other ammo and the fact that it doesn’t give off as much noise it should not be passed up . But I will also keep some higher caliber guns around incase I have to take out a large group of shufflers because if you are being surrounded you can’t afford to take the time to put several shots into each zombie you have to take them out with each shot as quickly as possible . But as a stealthy weapon for taking out individual zombies and for long range sniping I believe the 22 should not be passed up .
Also the autoposy videos where of people that had been shot and where being examined by a coroner to see how they died . These people hadn’t been shot and dumped in a field to rot for a week , while these bodies had been sitting around for a day or two sometimes , they had been in a freezer at the morgue for most of that time . Also while not all the 22 bullets you fire will behave this way enough of them will so that you don’t have to worry about the zombies getting back up after taking a successful head shot . All things considered I will personlly be using a 22 for plinking zombies at a distance but will have something a bit more powerful for up close encounters because when they get too close you can’t afford to $!%# around and take the time to fire multiple shots into each zombie you need to take them down then and there .
McLuvin on 30 Nov 2010 at 4:14 pm #
@bear
I’m not suggesting that no one else has guns. I’m just saying that we have a bunch of people on here who talk out of their collective ass about guns. Very few people chose to prove that they own guns(which, by no means, qualifies them as experts) yet they all want to chime in when we discuss “stopping power” and effectiveness. I don’t doubt your word that you have guns, but anyone could get on here and claim that.
HMPlatinum on 30 Nov 2010 at 10:57 pm #
The 22lr has been proven time and time again to work great for brain-scramble…from the back, or side. If the zombies are coming at you the main part of the brainhousing group is behind the thickest part of the skull. Shooting through the eyes is an option, but I’d rather push bone through the skull with my .45, through the forehead and out the back.
If you’re in a position to get behind a shuffler, a mafia-style double tap should be just the ticket using 22lr and above. I’d rather carry AT LEAST a 9mm, but I’d use a 22 if that’s what I had with the bonus of light-weight, massive round-count ammo. Plenty of good rifle/pistol combos that use the same ammo.
Carry what you’re good with and what you’re comfortable with it’s reliablility for getting the job done. Then hope, regardless of weapon choice, that the best laid plan gets torn apart by whatever situation you find yourself in.
McLuvin on 01 Dec 2010 at 12:21 am #
Why would you hope that your plan gets torn apart? That just seems counter-productive.
big bear29 on 01 Dec 2010 at 12:38 pm #
Just heard of a cool new weapon the XM25 smart grenade launcher . This thing fires 25mm smart grenades that can are programed to detonate at a precise distance to take out enemies behind cover , it has a range of 2300 feet . Also its not that much bigger than an assault rifle but the price is horrific 25 to 30 grand .
Tony Las Vegas on 01 Dec 2010 at 1:03 pm #
I am new to this forum and I am enjoying it very much. I have not seen anyone mention the P90 made by FN Herstal. It shoots a 5.7mm rifle round with a 50 round magazine. It is a very lightweight semi-auto rifle with a buit in tridium sight (no batteries). It can be easily fitted with a laser and a flashlight if needed. Mine is also fittled with the raider suppressor from AWC suppressors (you need a federal stamp for this item and is not available in all states). I have many firearms (AR15′s, AK47′s, .308′s and many handguns), But the P90 is my goto gun because of the size, weight, low recoil, magazine capacity, accuracy, and most of all, RELIABILITY. The ammo and gun is a little pricey, but easy to find, at least in Las Vegas.
Semper gumbii on 01 Dec 2010 at 3:13 pm #
Yeah, and you gotta find programmable boolits fer it. ZAC, I hated all your reccomendations. There are so many better options. Like where was ruger and their accutrigger; or weatherby with their proven accuracy? Theres a grouping card right in the box showing you its accuracy. And what gun off the shelf bought at walmart or dicks is gonna be accurate at a mile? NONE. You’re talking BIG bucks to be accurate at half that distance. And what about marlins for the levers? The 1895, 45-70 should get a chance as a contender for ploughing through a couple zeds, or the 540grn. Rhino and elephant killers by garrett would turn an engine block to powder. All in all I’m highly disappointed in this list, I expected so much better.
Semper gumbii on 01 Dec 2010 at 3:17 pm #
Oh yeah, hatchets, tomahawks, and edged weapons like those are much easier to use in hand-to-hand and require little or no training. Plusthey have more uses in survival situations. Just a FYI.
And when you make your own boolits, powders not the issue, primers are. And you wouldn’t melt brass down to make boolits, you melt down car tire weights. You can cold swage these lead cores into the old brass to make jacketed rounds though.
HMPlatinum on 01 Dec 2010 at 4:49 pm #
quote McLuvin : “Why would you hope that your plan gets torn apart? That just seems counter-productive.”
Typo, sorry.
I meant hope it DOESN’T.
McLuvin on 01 Dec 2010 at 5:28 pm #
That makes more sense
Docwade on 01 Dec 2010 at 6:56 pm #
According to the available literature, concussion damage does next to nothing to zombies and explosive damage does minimal damage. Read Max Brooks.
big bear29 on 02 Dec 2010 at 2:57 am #
I’m half way through Max Brooks Zombie Survival Guide . Based on what I’ve read so far I think that if his zombie survival guide is your bible you need to change religions . I’m only about halfway through his book and I have some serious doubts about his so called ” hard won research and experience ” . Some of the stuff in his book that could be researched was poorly done , speciffically some of the info on weapons to use , structures to hide in and how to fortify them , terrains to avoid and some of his listed methods of survival . As I said I’m not all the way through it yet but thus far I’m not really that impressed with it .
In real life , concussion damage from explosions can collapse chest cavities and implode the human skull depending on how close the person is to the blast and how powerful it is .
Also an explosive that detonates in close proximity to a person in the real world can cause some serious damage or if the bomb is powerful enough it can reduce the person to nothing more than a char mark on the landscape .
Thats why mines and other explosives have been in use for centuries . If used correctly you can rack up some serious kills against the zombies if used poorly then your just wasting your time .
McLuvin on 02 Dec 2010 at 8:30 am #
Your understanding of military explosives is not quite right. Anti-personnel explosives are designed to maim, blow a limb off, or puncture the human body. The actual explosive force is not what does the damage. Grenades and Claymores send out fragments to incapacitate an enemy and hopefully cause them to bleed out. Since zombies don’t bleed, you are unlikely to kill one unless you get really lucky with a piece of shrapnel in the brain. Mines are only designed to damage the lower extremities. Blowing a zombies foot or calf off is only going to slow them down. Unless you are using large ordinance you aren’t going to have much luck.
big bear29 on 02 Dec 2010 at 11:07 am #
This is a partial repost from a response I put in “The Bang Theory: Explosives, Force Multiplier or Dinner Bell” . I left quite a bit of it out to reduce the amount that people would have to read .
While I do agree with you on how anti-personnel explosives rack up the majority of their kills , using them in the conventional warfare role against such an unconventional enemy would only serve to waste time and ordinance .
Detonating a bomb at your enemies feet will damage the lower half of their body so you need to readjust where these bombs will be going off to increase your chances of scoring a kill .
1. IEDs and hand grenades
While these likely wouldn’t kill many , if any zombies if detonated on the ground they could be used to rack up significant kills in the right enviroment . For starters don’t throw them at the enemys feet instead use them as booby traps . Set them up at chest to head height on a standing object like fence posts , trees , stop signs , the side of buildings power line posts or even abandoned vehicles . Then run a trip wire to another nearby object or even attach the trip wire to the ground . Now when the zombies come by KA-BOOM the bomb takes their heads off . If you can get a large group to pursue you into an area you prepared in advance you could potentially take out dozens of the undead . Also with IEDs you could set them up to be remotely detonated and use them in some truly devastating traps .
Use claymores in the same way as listed above by putting them on an object five to six feet tall . Now when it goes off you will take out quite a few zombies . It while act like a shotgun blast scattering the ballbearings out in a large pattern in front of it so place it just below what would be neck height on the average person in your area . This will let you do considerable damage to the head and spine as well as the upper chest .
2. Mines
Mines are a highly effective and brutally destructive weapon that have been in use for centuries and I believe that they would prove to be not only an effective weapon against the hoard and useful defensive tool , but an excellent early warning device because an explosion will get anyones attention , thereby letting you know that you have some unwanted guests to entertain . Also mines are far more powerful than many of the people on this website seem to think , yes some mines will take off a leg and some will take off half of your body and some of the mines out there will reduce you to nothing more than a red smear on the landscape . Also all those anti-tank mines that you all have been blowing off can be modified to be detonated when a zombie steps on them rather than a tank running them over .
P.S.
There are mines out there that have been in use for decades that are about half the size of a cereal bowl yet powerful enough to take part of a mans leg off . So consider how much more powerful some of the larger mines must be .
Docwade on 02 Dec 2010 at 10:49 pm #
You talking about this like your going to have extensive access to a very large stockpile of munitions, time, and mobility. Large bangs draw attention. This isn’t defense against siege warfare. So, you have your field of toe poppers planted and fence post/ chest high explosives all Christmas wrapped with ball bearings and nails….and they start trickling in. Cool, couple dozen down. Big group starts showing up and your Big IED goes off. Then a wall of zeds a mile wide crests your kill zone and “oh shit”. Your jumping into whatever ride you have and bugging out. Now you’re holed up in a new safe house, maybe one you didn’t intend and it’s not stocked. Now your back to the gear on your back. Your not going to have unlimited rounds in your gun, unlimited demo charges to waste, or unlimited time to setup your super awesome homemade land mines that you seem to know more about than anyone. Magic mushroom mines maybe? Eventually, everyones going to be getting by with what’s in their hands and on their back.
Semper gumbii on 02 Dec 2010 at 10:58 pm #
I’ll give two mine examples, russian antipersonel mines and the trash-can lid knock-off charlie used on helo’s. Both of those would be great on the undead. Even claymores put pointing at a downward angle on tree limbs, tunnels and doorways would knock some heads off.
Anyone ever heard of a concussion grenade? Turns your innards to jell-o in an enclosed room. Seems like a good time setting up in a sky scraper. Box of explosives and a base kit/zip line would kill a massive amount of pursuing undead while leaving you alive to enjoy some marshmellows.
Docwade on 02 Dec 2010 at 11:08 pm #
What’s it matter that concussion collapses their chests…they don’t breath. The blast has to completely destroy the cns. You’ll get a few, but accepting that zombies are the intended target, you have to already realize that lethality for any weapon is already reduced. A “kill” is very specific in its circumstances.
I think we will have to realize the “effort/energy vs. yield” problem. One block of your home brew Semtex, scavenged ball bearings and metal, a post, wire to secure it and trigger it, time invested, risk of being sighted by scavenging humans…let’s say your post completely kills 5 and maimes ten conservatively, but alerts all zed’s within twenty miles. I would kill 5 suppressed with a 10/22, not be detected, and continue to operate in that area. Who’s more likely to survive?
Docwade on 02 Dec 2010 at 11:21 pm #
@ semper:
Where are you getting enough explosives to blow the base of a Skyscraper? I think you’re going to be more concerned with getting your next meal than trying to replicated fight club.
McLuvin on 02 Dec 2010 at 11:51 pm #
I don’t know Doc, maybe we shouldn’t criticize these guys. If we are nice, they may give us the location of the munitions dump they have been stocking. If I’m really good and help them kill 5 zombies maybe they will let me drive the remote controlled car rigged with C4, or call in air support.
Nah! Who am I kidding? I’ll keep giving them a hard time.
Semper gumbii on 03 Dec 2010 at 1:04 am #
Who says you have to blow the base? I’m saying enough to use concussion and closed quarters blast to do some serious damage to the beings inside. No one said anything about taking down a building genius. Didn’t you read the whole post? Note the bit about concussion grenades?
And who really thinks the zombies are reanimated dead? Thats just retarded. If tissues don’t recieve oxygen and nutrients via blood it is dead, and will not chase you. This isn’t resident evil, boys. Lets take a step back to reality. There are already parasites that make living things act unnaturally. When a zombie attack happens its going to be living creatures out of their gourd. Not reanimated dead. THINK about it, no magic pixie dust exist that brings back the dead, unless you think jesus is leading the zombies
big bear29 on 03 Dec 2010 at 1:11 am #
I live near a major air base that is stocked out the wazoo with guns , bullets , explosives and aerial bombs . They have more ordinance there than people to use it . Also there are multiple army depots in the surronding area that are stocked with bullets and tanks and everything in between and guarded by only a few people at any time . Plus there are a lot of rock quarries that keep hundreds of pounds of explosives on hand at all times as well as detonaters and primer cord .
I guess I cut out to much content when I reposted otherwise you would have realized that I would be using them to set up a guantlet that the zombies would have to come through to follow me . And that this guantlet wouldn’t be anywhere near my safe house , although I would still have a minefield surrounding it with remotely detonated mines and ied’s . Also I would be setting up buildings so that I could lure in large groups of zombies and then bring the whole building down on their heads after I crossed over to the roof of another near by building .
Also given how spread out the towns are from one another in my area even if the explosions could be heard twenty miles away (unlikely) , by the time any zombies got there I would have left long before .
big bear29 on 03 Dec 2010 at 1:18 am #
@Semper gumbii
Cool down man , these are the Max Brooks fan boys your trying to convince . These guys believe that bombs won’t work because ” Max Brooks said it was so ” and didn’t bother to think about it beyond that . The more bombs they pass up the more there will be for guys like you and me that can think of ways of fighting the zombies without wasting precious ammo .
Semper gumbii on 03 Dec 2010 at 1:26 am #
Haha, I’m cool. Its just irritating when a fan-boy ‘tard doesn’t use the two brain cells god gave him to utilize all possible ideas… But hey, they won’t make it past the first 3 days so I’ll have easy access to their stashes.
Semper gumbii on 03 Dec 2010 at 1:41 am #
@ docwade hey turbo… A brain is considered an “innard”. But if you really believe magic pixie dust reanimates the dead then you have bigger problems.
big bear29 on 03 Dec 2010 at 1:47 am #
Some of these guys remind me of lemmings , blindly following one another into the welcoming embrace of death . Oh well I’ll raid their gear after their gone .
McLuvin on 03 Dec 2010 at 10:54 am #
So you fellas with superior intelligence have thought up a great way to save ammo. Hundreds of pounds of explosives. That’s genius! You can save that case of ammo by using that boxcar full of high explosives you are carrying around.
Semper gumbii on 03 Dec 2010 at 11:12 am #
Oh wait, you believe that magic pixie dust reawakens the dead…yeah, your opinion matters
Semper gumbii on 03 Dec 2010 at 11:21 am #
And hey, while you’re trying to sneak and creep, trying to kill things with a subsonic .22 round (lmfao) I’m going to on a major zombie offensive, with boobie trap, bait and rigged buildings. Go ahead and take your five out at a time. Just don’t talk shit when someone plans on taking out 500 at once. And quit acting like a bunch of stuck up snooty bitches. You’ve obviously been playing too many video games and reading too many comics, and have lost the ability to use that lump 3 ft above your ass for anything more than a hat rack.
big bear29 on 03 Dec 2010 at 12:13 pm #
@mcluvin
Unlike you I’m in a great area to fight the zombies and would not leave . So all that I have to do is get the gear back to my place and seeing how I know how to drive forklifts , semi trucks and am learning to fly helicopters and know how to fly some planes it won’t be all that hard for me to survive . So lets compare who will have the most gear to survive with after the outbreak , the guy with the secluded house in the middle of nowhere that is filled with food and gear and tons of bombs and bullets or the guy with a eighty pound backpack and a case of ammo . The odds are not in your favor einstein . You can run off to the mountains or the forest or the most inhospitable regions of canada like so many have said they would do . I’ll stay in an area where I can see the zombies from a ways off and pick them off , grow food nearly year round , don’t have to worry about dying in a blizzard and have access to a lot of supplies .
Semper gumbii on 03 Dec 2010 at 12:26 pm #
Amen, +1, all that jazz
McLuvin on 03 Dec 2010 at 12:47 pm #
I hope you are docking away those explosives now. It’s gonna be interesting for you when you are sneaking into an overrun military base to use those forklift skills.
And I believe the only one who has mentioned magic pixie dust is you. Most people on here agree that if anything of this type ever happens it will be some kind of virus. Nobody expects corpses clawing their way out of the cemetery.
Semper gumbii on 03 Dec 2010 at 1:07 pm #
Well genius, to date there are no viruses that reanimate the dead, or that allows dead cells to function. No magic T-virus. However there are a few parasites that create confusion, anger, and actions adverse to survival. Furthermore there are drugs that can put people into zombie like trances. My references to magic pixie dust were just to emphasize your ignorence. And how do you know that military bases will be over run? Stop touting your armchair experience and over-active imigination as expertise.
big bear29 on 03 Dec 2010 at 1:41 pm #
Getting to all that gear won’t be as hard as you think and the military base is the size of a small city and is spread out so even if the base gets over run I should still be able to move around while avoiding the infected . Plus they don’t store the bombs and ammo right beside the housing brainiac . Its on the far side of the base where there would be few if any people . So the likelyhood that I would encounter any zombies would be slim and if I did run into any , I have a gun for a reason . Plus it won’t take long to load a truck up using a forklift so by the time any zombies got over there I would already be on my way out .
And before you start whining that getting into the base would be nearly impossible you should know that most of the base is protected by a single nine foot tall chain link fence that doesn’t even have razor wire at the top in some places . These posts are anchored into soft soil which means that occasionally a cow will rub up against the fence and knock it over . Plus there are sections where there are no fence at all and at one section the only barrier is a row of bushes .
Semper gumbii on 03 Dec 2010 at 3:23 pm #
I used to walk to a bar off post and stumble back drunk, climbing the gate into my housing area to avoid the hassles of dealing with a gate guard. If someone as drunk as I was can do it at night, with NO gear; i’m sure just about anyone can. And the AHA is always far away from any parts of the main post, and with nothing there to attract infected. Its also stored in underground bunkers, so i’d be easy to defend in a pinch as long as you had the weapons.
Docwade on 03 Dec 2010 at 5:00 pm #
You two seem to approach this mental exercise as if (1) there is a zombie outbreak and (2) everyone else on the planet has suddenly vanished and you have free reign of all resources. During the first few weeks, everyone is going to be trying to steal whatever they can. When the infrastructure breaks down, military bases will collapse due to your cited low security. Munitions will likely be transported by those same trucks you mentioned to centralize resources. Remember, as soon as the s*** hits the fan, those resources you think you’re going to snag are going to immediately start being used.
Docwade on 03 Dec 2010 at 5:18 pm #
@ semper: “arm chair experience and overactive imagination as experience” and you’re talking about wiring up a skyscraper with explosives and base jumping or zip lining away to safety with a pair of pixie wings??? Seriously?
Semper gumbii on 03 Dec 2010 at 6:25 pm #
As expertise… Can’t you even read? And whats wrong with it? I’ve rigged explosives, I’ve used zip lines, and I’ve parachuted… Shouldn’t be too hard to combine them. Base jumping may be a bit tougher.. Or maybe you just don’t understand the concept? And more than likely when this pandemic happens, small nasty girl post are going to be abandoned and its defenders swallowed up in the initial tide, there is no way they’re going to be able to transport that much ammo anywhere fast, and by the time the logistics are in place it’ll be much too late. Guess it’ll be first come first serve, sucks to be the guy who gave up on the idea before it ever happened.
big bear29 on 03 Dec 2010 at 6:29 pm #
Oh my . It seems we’ve offended the fan boys . What ever shall we do .
1. You are operating under the belief that the military and the goverment will be all over the outbreak like stink on $#!* . Goverments and the military will be slow to react at first which will only help to spread the infection .
2. Once the police get wiped out while trying to control the outbreak it will fall on the shoulders of the military to take their place . Once it becomes obvious that they can’t protect the populace of an area they will begin evacuating them to a secure location , such as inside their own military bases . Some of these people will likely have been bitten and simply not turned yet and once they turn they will begin infecting other refugees . Once the military finds themselves fighting the infected outside the base and inside , whatever defenses they have will quickly fall and they will not have the time to carry out a careful and orderly retreat which means a lot of supplies will get left behind .
3. You have clearly forgotten the the two groups that will get turned into zombies in short order . Idiots and freeloaders . The idiots are the ones that will be trying to make a fast getaway in rush hour traffic to escape the zombies or shooting wildly at any thing in sight because they have already flipped their lid or are taking the opportunity to get the appliances they always wanted . The freeloaders are the people that always expect the goverment to take care of them in an emergency . They will either stay in their homes till they starve , waiting on a rescue that will never come or they will seek protection at a police station , fire staion or hospital . All of which are places that will quickly get over run . So I don’t expect everyone else on the planet will “VANISH” but I do believe they will be joining the enemy ranks very quickly .
3.During the first few weeks most people will be more concerned with day to day survival . Do I have enough food , will the barricades hold , how long can I survive with the tire iron I snagged out of the trunk of my car , that kind of thing . They will be more concerned with getting away and finding someplace safer than where they are . Which means that the people that are thinking long term will still have the opportunity to get the supplies they need to carry out their plans .
Angryvikingman on 03 Dec 2010 at 6:33 pm #
Ok, ok, ok…
Enough about the pixie dust. Everyone here has differing theories on how the zombies will be. “Night of the living dead” types or “28 days later” types or whatever. I prefer the “28 days later” as the most probable type. We’re NOT all Max Brooks fanboys. I haven’t ever read any of his stuff, and from what I hear its crap, but I love the Genre and like to use things like this for thought exercises. BTW 22 subsonic will kill lots of stuff. Even people. I’ve seen people shot to death with 22lr less than 10 feet from me. It is a lethal round for lots of things. That and silent mantraps and dead falls is how I’d police my base perimeter.
Docwade on 03 Dec 2010 at 6:54 pm #
Nope can’t read, never could. You’re still missing the point. Getting to a skyscraper takes time, even for you, Rambo. The streets will not be open passages devoid of contacts, McClain. Clearing a skyscraper will take time, Dutch. Securing a skyscraper and rigging your fatal funnels takes time, Cobra. Transportation of your deuce and a half of material has it’s own problems when the fuel stops flowing, T101. Just think about it for a second…your plan, works beautifully. The zombies file in like it’s welfare check day. Pouring in by the hundreds. You base jump from your predetermined perch and set off your kill zone. Hundreds of zombies are dispatched, big smile on your face. Wind shifts and slams you into the next largest building and you break your leg. Unless you’re a coastie, you know that you have to have a second plan since the first usually doesn’t work. What’s your second plan in this case? Shoot yourself?
Lets say you decide to zip line instead. Now youve spent double the prep time clearing two buildings. Except maybe you were a little lax on securing the second one or someone decided that building was a great hidout and broke into one of the doors and got killed during your climb in the kill house. Now youre zip lining into an infested building with only what you have on your back. Great plan! where can i get one. Slow and steady man.
Docwade on 03 Dec 2010 at 7:12 pm #
@ Big bear
1. I absolutely do not believe the government and military would be effective or swift in dealing with an outbreak of such magnitude.
2. Centralization of resources; your populace is a resource too. Base is infected inside and out…the result is a base teaming with zombies. Go shopping at your own risk.
3. I’m quite aware of the two sub-populations you cite. And agree, they will become the enemy in short order. Another obstacle in your shopping spree.
Your second #3. You won’t be the only human with a firearm and a motivation to remain local and salvage from what’s left behind. You’re still approaching this as if your situation is in a vacuum and you are aware of and control everything in your universe. A plan is just a list of things that doesn’t happen after contact with the enemy.
big bear29 on 03 Dec 2010 at 7:27 pm #
@Docwade
As for the second #3 . My keyboard is on the fritz so sue me , just about every time I hit a key it will pop up something that I know I didn’t hit , I usually catch it but I didn’t that time . E-machines , you just got to love that quality merchandise .
The people looking to survive day to day would be far more likely to avoid an area with even a minimal zombie presence . So they would likely steer well clear of any compromised facility . And vacate any infected cities or areas .
Also I happen to know that no plan survives first contact with the enemy , thats why you need to develop contingency plans in the event your first one falls apart .
Docwade on 03 Dec 2010 at 7:42 pm #
People looking for day to day survival will be scavenging. To scavenge, they would locate themselves in the periphery or suburbs of a major city center compromising, as little as possible, their safety for access to resources. You’re still risking running into “have nots” in your AO. The louder you are, the more likely you will be noticed by both sides.
Semper gumbii on 03 Dec 2010 at 9:01 pm #
You’re acting like zombies will be sitting still, just waiting for a meat snack, and not actively hunting, chiefy. Any creature that wants to survive will be actively hunting, bucko, not waiting in a closet. And, slim, 70 sticks of c4 and 2000 feet of det cord only weighs about 130lbs. Premade and split between 2 you could scoot and shoot you way up, laying it out as you go, with either a time delay or electric remote switch. Or… You could be real crafty, pre-rig explosives and a distraction, have the explosives a victim trigger and the distraction (lights, music, flares…whatever remote or timer triggered. Bug out long before it goes off and attract as many zombies to that area as possible and they set it off. Either way I’d rather actively engage the enemy than spend my time living like a cockroach, pilgrim.
McLuvin on 03 Dec 2010 at 9:24 pm #
@Big Bear & Gumbii
You two keep calling everyone else fanboys, and saying we obviously have no skills and will die in short order following an outbreak. I for one, think your Rambo plan will get you killed long before some of us. You agree that military bases are going to be quarantine areas that will probably become hotbeds of infection. Yet you plan on infiltrating said bases for supplies. That will require some pretty serious skill with firearms to fight your way in and out. What kind of experience do you have with firearms? You plan to rig thousands of explosive charges. What kind of experience do you have with explosives? You talk about laying mine fields and rigging booby traps/demo charges. How much time do you think you will have to accomplish these things once people start eating eachother?
Good luck with your suicide plan. I think I’ll stick with hiding and scavenging like Doc.
Docwade on 03 Dec 2010 at 9:50 pm #
“A candle that burns twice as bright lasts half as long”. You can actively engage without trying to be an army of one (even the army doesn’t use that one anymore). Look at how well it worked for the Vietnamese. It isn’t about taking the fight to the enemy. It’s about weighing the benefit versus expenditure of an engagement. 60 lbs of det cord and plastic eh? Rifle, sidearm, ammo, water, 3 days rations, sleeping roll, aid kit, fire kit, comm gear for you and the other guy hauling the other 60 lbs, 8 lbs of what’s on your back: BDU’s, tac vest, holsters etc and you’re going to stroll onto a hot base and hope you find food and munitions? I think you’re going to strain your egg bag.
Semper gumbii on 03 Dec 2010 at 9:53 pm #
No predator stays in a predator heavy area and survives. As soon as the food supply is exausted they move. Hotbeds of infestation will only last as long as the food supply. Think about it. Easier to lure mass amouts of critters to one area and wipe them out rather than sneak aroud packs of them scavaging for trash. And obviously you’ve no idea of a military base layout, or you’d know that the AHA is located far away from the main base. As far as my experience with explosives? I was a scout for 8 years, did multiple tours of Iraq, from 2003 until I got out, and was trained by a sapper in the use of C4 and det cord for beaching charges, daisey chains for destroying uxo, and general mayhem. I’ve got plenty of training and practical use of all things standard, and use, production, and disposal of HME. I’m pretty sure as long as I can get my hands on it, I might just be able to make it work. Whats your experience with anything outside of a video game?
McLuvin on 03 Dec 2010 at 10:05 pm #
Ok, so I’ll assume you know how to use it. That’s one issue down. You are still counting on the base being deserted, and you are carrying hundreds of pounds of gear around. How big of a group are you employing to watch your back while you rig a skyscraper to blow? It takes demo experts days to rig an implosion, and they aren’t normally in danger of being eaten at the time. It takes special placement and types of charges to bring a building down properly. It would really suck if you zipline to an adjacent building and the first building falls into it because you just loaded the 2nd floor with C4. I’m going to stay as far away from military bases and skyscrapers as I can. You still didn’t tell us your experience with firearms.
Docwade on 03 Dec 2010 at 10:16 pm #
For a scout, you have pretty weak taste in civilian firearms. I went through a crap gun phase when I got out too so, I don’t hold that against you terribly. One of the first guns I wanted when I got out was a Colt 1911 series (ended up with a crap 1991A1), a Beretta 92FS, and an AR15. You seem to lean more toward cowboy action. I know you said you don’t have one, but a side by side 12 gauge reloads faster? I’d be more than happy to run side by side with you twenty rounds with my saiga12 with magwell. I would smooooooooooooke you.
Docwade on 03 Dec 2010 at 10:24 pm #
“Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter. You will meet them doing various things with resolve, but their interest rarely holds because after the other thing ordinary life is as flat as the taste of wine when the taste buds have been burned off your tongue.”
Hemingway
Semper gumbii on 03 Dec 2010 at 11:19 pm #
Weak taste in firearms? I’ve got a glock, sig, and ruger pistol, representing a full spectrum of callibers, two bolt action rifles, and a levergun. A cannon of a levergun, I might add. And as far as my training with guns, I was combat arms, moron, with 8 years of service. I also did 1 1/2 years at knox as an osut instructor for scouts, teaching weapons and vehicles. There isn’t a gun the army had that I didn’t eventually qualify expert on, including top gun in my troop on the mod duece. If you’re through questioning my abilities I’ll send you a certified copy of my erb, if you really want. And yeah, two shots at a time, but I don’t havr to try cramming 4-6 rounds back down the tube when I reload. (if I had the double) really if I could have what I wanted it’d be that 12 made off AK specs. Mag loaded, thats what I’m talkin about. Gimme that heavy ass drum holding 50 rounds.
I’m not sure how many times I gotta type this for you suzy, but I’m not aiming at taking down the building. My plan was to use that massive area of enclosed spaces to use what explosives I could carry to their maximum advantage. And hey, maybe the ziplines a bad idea, maybe not, I’ll have to look into it more. But turning a building into a zombie charnal house, thats dreams everyone could aspire to. We used to do something similar to hodge, lure em in, and smoke em. Just not with c4 and skyscrapers. Principle is the same though.
McLuvin on 03 Dec 2010 at 11:24 pm #
I wasn’t ignoring your military training, I was simply asking if you have any GOOD experience with firearms. Military “experts” are usually a pretty bad joke.
Docwade on 03 Dec 2010 at 11:26 pm #
But a skyscraper’s interior walls are not load bearing and will not contain the blast to produce concussive effect. Skyscrapers are built with an externally loadbearing superstructure. Stairwells and floors are reinforced, but the walls are stamped aluminum studs and drywall.
Docwade on 03 Dec 2010 at 11:36 pm #
@ Semper: This is from your real life load out:
“umberti cattleman in .45LC, glock 36, sig 229, ruger p95dc, and a walther p22 for pistols; a weatherby .308, rem 770 .243, marlin 1895gs, ruger and marlin .22′s for rifles, and a winchester pump 12 gauge for a shotti”
uberti SSA: who are you, Patton?
Glock 36: ok for back up and shooting yourself in the dome, but a 21 for this application would be better
Ruger P-anything: weak
Walther P22: I’ve owned one, it’s crap
Weatherby: awesome, do you think there will be zombie deer?
Rem 770: base model and difficult to find round when the chips are down
Canon lever gun: possibly zombie buffalo
I like the ruger 22lr rifle if its a 10/22. The marlin? is it a model 60?
Everyone needs some kind of 12 gauge. Pumps are pumps.
big bear29 on 03 Dec 2010 at 11:53 pm #
It takes demo experts days to rig up a building to implode because they are doing it to take out that one building without damaging any of the surrounding buildings , they are also setting it up to fall vertically . If you know what you are doing you can setup the explosions to go off in order to destabilize the building and get it to fall in a specific direction . It is similar to felling a tree , you chop into the side of the tree so that the tree will fall in that specific direction .
And after I put down that I would be using a TRUCK to hual the supplies how did you come to the conclusion that a truck is really just another word for backpack . Bases are huge , based on your comments I can only conclude that you have never been on one . They are huge and spread out , they are like miniature cities unto themselves and the supplies that I would be getting are on the far side of the base away from everything , there are no nearby houses or barracks so the zombie population would be minimal .
If you are bringing back only what you can carry in your backpack then you won’t be able to scavenge enough supplies to support your group espescially if your pack is already loaded down with gear which would greatly limit how much you could bring back . Using a truck for mass scavenging operations is really the only way to go to support a large group of people on the move as you will be consuming more resources since you are expending more energy carrying around fully loaded backpacks for weeks .
Docwade on 04 Dec 2010 at 12:20 am #
That’s fine and dandy in the beginning, but fuel will eventually be exhausted. Look at Katrina, look at the 70s. You will have punched all the local vehicle fuel tanks, siphoned all the local gas stations dry, raided any local small airstrips and farms. Remember, other people will be working the same plans. Your thoughts aren’t novel. The short story is, your truck will act like your mobile command center. Eventually you will have to step out of it and maneuver on foot. Then you will have what is on your back. You may not be able to get back to your beloved TRUCK. Oh s***, now your in the 14th ring of your spiral search pattern from your base of ops, 20 miles walk from home. And now we’re back to the backpack.
Docwade on 04 Dec 2010 at 12:29 am #
And demoing a skyscraper is most definitely not like felling a tree. Structural blue prints, anyone? The JL department store demo required 2728lbs of explosives by professionals.
big bear29 on 04 Dec 2010 at 1:17 am #
I was giving the felling a tree example so that hopefully you would understand what I was trying to get across . If you can properly time the explosions to take out the supports on one side of the building you can get the skyscraper to fall in a specific direction . Also if you are trying to drop the building vertically like the demolition crews do to prevent damage to the surrounding buidings it will take more explosives . But if you are trying to destroy the building without any regard for the surroundings you can actually do it with less . By taking out the supports on one side you will disrupt the buildings ability to distrubute the weight evenly and it will begin to crumble towards the weakened side .
As for the fuel source for the truck you do realize that vehicles can be run on more than just gas or diesal right . You can modify vehicles to run off of fryer grease , kerosene , electricity , hydrogen , propane , moonshine and even the methane given off by decompossing organic matter and human waste . In germany during ww2 when fuel began to get harder and harder to come by for the civilians some of them would convert their cars to run off methane gas and would have a large bag or canister mounted on the top of their vehicle that was filled with methane to fuel their car . There are some companies that sell kits to modify your car or truck to run off of these “alternative” fuels .
Semper gumbii on 04 Dec 2010 at 4:03 am #
What idiot says a .45 glock compact with staggered mags is junk? Glocks are the AK’s of pistols. The ruger was my first gun, I still have it, so bite me. Plus its 9mm, and if your rinky dink .22 is so effective, I’m sure my 9 will do just fine. The weatherby is a .308, with a 10x tactical scope that I can repeatedly hit dinner plates with at 450m. I’ve done it, over and over. The .243 was just bought for a lighter caliber to plink with. As for the cattleman *shrug* fuck you, I like it. And the marlin is a 1895gs. Thats a 45-70. It’ll knock the block out of a truck engine at 100yards. ‘specially with one of garrets 540gr hardened rounds. I’m sure that’ll be useful if anything ever goes tits up. I don’t see the point in buying an assault rifle, I’m sure when I need on there will be plenty on the ground. But none of my weapons were bought in hopes of Z day. They’ve been picked up over the years and I’m sure I’ve got more time at the range with any of them then both you monkies have with a female. And oh yeah, the weatherby is guaronteed to shoot 1.5 moa groups out of the box, for the vanguards. Show me a 700 with the same quality. Ya’ll are really getting too wrapped up in the skyscraper thing.
Making your own nitro is extremely dangerous. Its not just dumping two chemicals together in a bowl and hoping for the best, besides, there many easier ways. And if I were going to fire a building, I’d just mix gas with sosp powder or styrofoam and leave it in its metal container, duct tape that to a butane bottle with a stick of C4 as a dispersant and make huge fireballs. Entirely possible. The only thing is I really haven’t sat down and thought it out. Considering I don’t have any skyscrapers within like 100 miles of me, its a pretty moot point. Just an idea. But If I were hunting zombies, I’d want to do it in a city. Thats just too beautiful a place to do it. Plenty of escape routes, avenues of approach, open fields of fire… Mixed with close buildings, hidey holes, hundreds of ambush sites. You could fight your way up the empire state building floor by flood and do crazy damage. The possibilities are just endless.
But hey, I don’t have the t-shirt and I never went to your treehouse for the club meeting. Plus, I don’t know the secret handshake so really…what do I know? Its late, I just spent 5 hours playing fallout, I think I got my zombie training for the day. Do you know all you need is a bottle of nuke cola, some fuel, and just one other thing and you can make rockets? Oh wait… Now I’m acting like you, unable to tell a videogame from real life. Good thing I caught myself before I started basing my every move on resident evil.
Docwade on 04 Dec 2010 at 7:48 am #
@ simpler:
A Glock 36 is not a staggered column magazine glock. Or is it a glock 30 that you own? Are you not sure? Have you, “not given much thought to it”?
Docwade on 04 Dec 2010 at 8:09 am #
And not your 1895gs, genius, I listed that under “zombie buffalo”. Your 22 marlin, I asked if it was a 60? Don’t see the need for an “assault rifle”? Just going to pick one up in the streets of your urban playground? Military not training you to prepare anymore? Firearms in any post apocalyptic scenario will have a value on par with food, fresh water, fuel, and toilet paper. They won’t just be laying around.
Docwade on 04 Dec 2010 at 8:15 am #
@ big bear
Yeah, I got your analogy. Have you ANY experience in felling a skyscraper? No wait, how about just a large tower? No? Just going to “roll with it” and see what happens? Good plan! Worked well for The hadjis in NY in 1993.
trollking on 04 Dec 2010 at 9:01 am #
Try to remember when you are shooting and moving with a semiauto pistol most people are trained to drop the mag while reaching for the next. Sooner or later you’ve just dropped your last mag and are holding a poorly designed club while my revolver can still be reloaded
McLuvin on 04 Dec 2010 at 10:03 am #
You have more time at the range than we have with women, really? I have more time putting socks on than you have flying a space shuttle. See, I can compare two completely unrelated statistics too.
As for the Glock, either you are ignorant about the gun you own or you are lying about owning it. The Glock is an excellent gun but I would never choose a low capacity weapon for a large number of enemies. The guide gun is mostly wasted power. Sorry Viking, but I’ve dealt with dozens(if not hundreds) of P22s and they are junk. They tend to fall apart around the case mark. The weatherby is a decent gun but you bragging about the 1.5 moa is stupid. Almost any modern rifle will shoot that or better with good ammo.
McLuvin on 04 Dec 2010 at 10:30 am #
This fixation on fighting your way up a skyscraper is retarded. That is way too risky for the possible gain. You have some fantasy of being the ultimate killing machine. Running around a major city with hundreds of thousands of zombies is almost a guaranteed death.
Semper gumbii on 04 Dec 2010 at 4:49 pm #
See last sentence:
@douchewad Maybe you just dont know guns as well as you think you do, might want to look it up again sunshine. And like I said, I didn’t base any of my purchases on an impending zombie day.
I know you’ve seen too many movies, I know you’re an utter retard who’s unable to grasp simple ideas when you’ve got some misconception locked in you’re head, and I know every bit of your “experience” in anything come from the television, video games and comic books you live in. Well shirley, 1) if theres no food, there will be no zombies. They’re not going to sit in a room and wait for something to come through. I know they do in movies, but thats just not how predators work. You’d have to give them a reason to be there. The fact that you cling to these hollywood misconceptions is imbecile. 2) no one ever said fighting your way up it, learn a little reading comprehension. 3) never said anything about toppleing a building, just blowing the hell out of everything inside. 4) it was just an idea on how to maximize use of explosives, not my goal in life. You freaks and your fixiations, get over it dipshit. (I’m also a little girl who likes to play dress up and put shampoo bottles in my ass. The taste of sperm is also appealing to me.)
Angryvikingman on 04 Dec 2010 at 5:25 pm #
My P22s have chewed through thousands of rounds and I’ve had no problems out of either of them. Of course mine were made before they started making the slides and other parts out of crap metal. I’m also really rough on guns. I generally don’t shoot less than 1k rounds of ammo at a time. I’d say 90% of that is 22lr. People laugh when I take a 22lr Turkey hunting, but I can hit a turkey at a dead run at over 70 yards(open sight Ithica single shot lever action.), and they have to catch them sitting still at 25 yards with a 3 inch magnum load. Generally, I get more turkeys than anyone else I have hunted with. I also have friends who love to use 22lr to deer hunt. They have limited power for that past 100 yards, but down here you’ll rarely make a shot farther than that due to the woods, brush, ect.
Also, my AR-15 shoots 1 moa. If I can cover a 100 yard, 5 shot group with a nickel, then thats damn good in ANYONES book.
Docwade on 04 Dec 2010 at 5:27 pm #
Last sentence: doesn’t surprise me, rarest glock owner.
McLuvin on 04 Dec 2010 at 5:36 pm #
Wow Gumbii!
This is a simple zombie forum. I think you should save confessions like that for your therapist or priest
Semper gumbii on 04 Dec 2010 at 8:12 pm #
Its a 30, my bad yo. And real funny viking, way to add what you like, pedobear. But hey, you fag boys live in your dream world and keep getting off on slapping each other on the back. Hope it works out for you.
Angryvikingman on 05 Dec 2010 at 7:35 am #
Well, I’ve seen the path these things can take, so I put a stop to it in the most humane way possible with a twist of humor. Stop flaming and I won’t edit your posts to make you look like you enjoy some man loving. Present your argument without cursing at people and maybe they’ll take you more seriously. Also, check your facts before you post, so you don’t draw the ire of people who like to nitpick when you f-up and put the wrong thing on accident.
Angryvikingman on 05 Dec 2010 at 10:00 am #
@Docwade
What kind of ammo do you use to prevent over/under gassing in your saiga12? Or did you just get an MD Arms gas plug? Why would you make a gun with only 2 gas settings when russian ammo is so notoriously crappy and in consistant? I’ve shot a few and some dont even cycle walmart ammo on the “2″ setting. If/when I get one I am getting the MD Arms gas plug and a drum or 2.
McLuvin on 05 Dec 2010 at 10:03 am #
Two good choices, Viking. The Saiga 12 is badass. Way more useful than the belt-fed too.
Docwade on 05 Dec 2010 at 10:14 am #
I did go with the 4 setting gas plug from MD arms. I’ll have to check what gas setting I’m running on. I can’t remember if it is 2 or 3 of 4. I still can’t run the Winchester bulk pack. It’s just too under powered for mine. I have one of the earlier ones and haven’t investigated my gas ports to see if they are setup properly. I just run the next step up bulk pack Remington game loads for clay/3 gun and Remington bulk pack slugs/000 for competition. I’ve polished the rails and bolt carrier contact surfaces.
I had second one I converted so I could run drums but I didn’t care for the bulk the drums gave the weapon. Now if someone would just make a staggered magazine that feeds to a single sack top section, I’d buy ten.
Looks like setting 3 and I’m running an internal buffer.
Docwade on 05 Dec 2010 at 10:21 am #
I agree with mcluvin regarding the 22 belt fed. I do like the concept and relative novelty of the setup, but disintegrating links are a pain versus mags, and the cloth belts can loosen up after many trips to the range resulting in dropped rounds and misfeeds. I don’t like the big plastic ammo box on the left side or the mirror of that box on the right if your running disintegrating links. Looks like elephant ears. I’d prefer the 249 style underslung nutsack ammo bag with a casing deflector on top to route the spent brass coming out of the ar magwell. Oh he’ll, I’ll probably eventually get one just to add to my weird gun collection.
Angryvikingman on 05 Dec 2010 at 10:25 am #
Yeah, I was thinking of using the saiga for bird hunting as Tennessee only limits your ammo for migratory water fowl. Mua ha ha! I can see the birds raining from the skies! Also, I’ve been thinking of getting into 3 gun tournaments and the CZ and Saiga 12 will round out my necessary guns. I don’t want to try to use my CCW for 3 gun as it only has 8 rnd mags and .380 ammo ain’t cheap.
HMPlatinum on 05 Dec 2010 at 6:24 pm #
I like the looks of that Razorback, but I don’t have the disposable income for that (and I have at least 3 22lr’s I don’t shoot).
But it looks cool.
I would like a Saiga with a drum.
Angry, any 3 gun around your neck of the woods? I’m looking for something a little more fun than paper slaying or skeet/trap. When hunting season isn’t in, that’s all we have here…I think.
Angryvikingman on 05 Dec 2010 at 11:28 pm #
@HMPlatinum
Yeah, there are several gun clubs around here that do IDPA and 3 gun matches. Usually 3 gun is second saturday and IDPA is 3rd saturday of each month. One of the largest gun dealers in the area also offers some classes on 3 gun, though I have yet to attend any of them. I don’t know if I’d want to spend the $400-500 to convert the saiga 12 to the non dork version, or if I’d just buy the tapco replacement stock for it. With a lot of the conversions, the mag release paddle is really close to the trigger guard and hard to access when you’re putting in/removing a mag. Also, I have to wonder about some sort of full auto trip on it, because can’t, you easily convert a standard Ak to full auto? The basic principle would seem the same given they’re almost the exact same gun. Not that I’d do it mind you until I got my class 3 manufacture permit. ($800 up front then $200 every 3 years.) Considering you can buy a NEW MP5 for about $800 if you have the permit. I just need to build a shop behind my house and put in a mailbox for it so it can have its own physical address and the Feds can’t rifle through my house, when the shop is my “Place of Business”. Get me?
Docwade on 06 Dec 2010 at 9:19 am #
No, it is not easily converted to full auto and I would leave that discussion at that.
HMPlatinum on 06 Dec 2010 at 8:24 pm #
I don’t think you would want full auto. I now you’re not elf-sized, but with the exception of a full-on horde rush, rock-and-roll has very limited application on any weapon. It is fun though. It’s not an drop-in easy conversion and there is plenty of info out there. Have you taken any gunsmith classes? I’ve thought about class 3, here, too.
I’ve thought about IDPA. I need a shotty for 3gun. Christmas is around the corner!
And the shop, with a separate physical address, is the way to go for a shop. Even a LLC setup, perhaps.
Angryvikingman on 06 Dec 2010 at 10:45 pm #
Select fire is fun as hell, I don’t really care about the practical applications, and shotgun ammo is cheaper than .223. And yeas, xmas and tax time is just around the conrer.
McLuvin on 06 Dec 2010 at 11:57 pm #
Select fire is a waste of ammo. I get to play with some serious toys and while I enjoy full auto it is useless and expensive. If you shoot alot ammo is a big expense anyway, full auto only makes it worse. The fun is not worth the price of admission for me.
Angryvikingman on 07 Dec 2010 at 5:43 am #
Generally speaking McLuvin, I’d agree with you, but the good thing about select fire is that you can always switch it back to semi auto. Wallyworld shotgun ammo is really cheap, and if I wanna blow 20 bucks on ammo in an afternoon, well I can afford that. Usually I’ll only shoot 100-200 rounds of shotgun ammo when shooting skeet before my shoulder has had enough anyway. Thats another reason I like the 22lr so much. You can literally shoot it all day, and get no recoil fatigue. It is one of my goals in life to own a fully automatic weapon, just to play with it.
Docwade on 07 Dec 2010 at 11:18 am #
Well, every so often a guy shows up with a vickers 303 on a tripod mount running full auto at a steel plate shoot. The plates are usuall two rows at about 80 and 100 yards. I run my semi rpd at the same time and I’m hitting a conservative 90% to his 5%. Besides, with a 30 round uber heavy alliance machine drum doing 3 round controlled bursts, you’ve just turned your 12 gauge 30 shot into a ten shot. I do like select fire, it has its place and time.
Morgan. on 07 Dec 2010 at 9:08 pm #
Just got done finally reading all the posts. A lot of good posts here. Explosives would be a good solution for mass disposal of the undead if used properly but extremely dangerous for an untrained user. And military ASP’s are extremely difficult to get into with the proper access,much less trying to break in while the world’s going to s***. I would recommend staying away from ammo bunkers until you have expended all other options. Something else… I’m looking at a Tarus Judge .45LC/.410. Seems like a poor choice for a primary weapon but a perfect fit for a small-of-the-back backup piece.
Ultenth on 07 Dec 2010 at 10:49 pm #
I’m curious what people think of this, but I’ve always thought that during the Zombpocalypse I would want to use mostly Revolvers and Bolt Action rifles, and only have semi-auto or full auto weapons as backups. I would think the ability to more easily police and keep your brass, thus making it easier to keep your bullet supplies up, would be of pretty high importance. I’m talking mostly in terms of after the initial wave, when immediate survival would trump anything. But I would think that later on in the game, being able to maintain your bullet supplies without constant lucky scavanging would be extremely desirable.
Also the downside to me of clip based weapons is the added weight of the additional clips, and the time it takes to reload them, especially in battle situations. Personally I would rather have a revolver with a quickloader and a bullet belt or something similar.
McLuvin on 07 Dec 2010 at 11:59 pm #
Morgan, try to rent one before you take the plunge. It really is a terrible weapon. It does everything poorly. Even with the purpose built handgun defense shells, it has moderate stopping power and crap accuracy. The gun is overly large and heavy. Even the smallest public defender is significantly bigger than a standard small frame. .45LC is a very inefficient round. Unless you load it hot it is underpowered for it’s size and the Taurus isn’t made to handle the hot loads.
Ultenth on 08 Dec 2010 at 12:42 am #
A couple other reasons to use a revolver (if you can find the right one, like a 1895 Nagrant or S&W Hush Puppy) is if you can find one that locks the cylinder during firing to prevent cylinder flash, you can put a suppressor on it and it will be much stealthier than it’s semi-auto counterpart.
No brass being thrown around to make noise, no loud slide action, and many semi-auto pistols cannot be properly suppressed because the addition of one can sometimes interfere with the post firing unlock.
Granted it is hard to get ahold of a revolver that can be properly silenced, and to get full suppression you would have to make your own specially designed ammo. Basically it would need to be a weapon you would already have pre-Zday, or else get really lucky at some point with downtime and resources to manufacture one. Defintely loses points for easy of finding and such, but as a weapon for use during scavanging runs into hostile territory or other similar situations, I can’t think of many that might top it for a handgun.
Angryvikingman on 08 Dec 2010 at 8:24 am #
You can use a brass catcher for almost every semiauto rifle and shotgun, thus you won’t have to go around picking it up. As for pistols, well, I’m not sweating reloading since I’ll mostly be using my 22lr with a supressor. I just need to pick up some more mags for it. Only have 4 for it at the moment, but I want about 10. (Its my P22, shhh, don’t tell McLuvin.) And the ability to carry so much more ammo on your person in preloaded mags is why the military uses these systems instead of revolvers and bolt actions. Also, a 2 second reload time instead of fumbling with a bullet belt for 5 or 6 shells and loading them one at a time is so much faster and easier for 99% of people. You don’t have to train yourself as hard or as ofter for a fast reaload with a mag fed weapon.
McLuvin on 08 Dec 2010 at 9:34 am #
@Ultenth
The Nagant has too many negative qualities to make it a viable choice. If you buy a suppressor that is designed to work with your auto cycling is not an issue. The added action noise is worth it to carry 3-4x the ammo in the gun. Picking up your brass is not going to be a concern in the middle of an attack. If you survive you can grab it.
3-15 INF on 08 Dec 2010 at 4:51 pm #
HAHA I’m counting more on our “zombies” being anarchistic, socialists angry that there’s no food and their welfare check didn’t show up rioting in the streets. I’m planning on loading up our trucks with all of our shit and shooting anyone who tries blocking the road between me and my way out of town.
You can call ‘em “zombies” or whatever you like. Whatever makes it easier for you to kill those who get in your way when the house of cards fall. I’m not worried about having an unending supply of guns and ammo. I’ll just take yours from your cold, dead fingers. Who knows, my son might be learning to shoot someday from the rifle youare now keeping at your house next to your pics of your “loadout”.
Docwade on 08 Dec 2010 at 5:01 pm #
Hah, come heavy, bad boy. Bullets go both ways.
McLuvin on 08 Dec 2010 at 7:43 pm #
I hope you are practicing. That military training doesn’t go far around here.
Morgan. on 08 Dec 2010 at 8:30 pm #
Just as a suggestion if your not one of the chosen few thats got military training under your belt try GPS Sniper School or Blackwater. (Google it) They’re all taught by combat veterans with years of experience. I’ve seen a few H&K .45′s that were threaded for a suppressor and taller sights. A bit pricey but most deffinintly worth it. Just sayn I prefer my 1911
big bear29 on 08 Dec 2010 at 9:18 pm #
Don’t get cocky just because you got training . I have met plenty of people both military and police that couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn even if they had their barrel pressed against it . I’ve also met plenty of recreational shooters and hunters out there that could easily out shoot trained military and police personnel . I’m not saying that that’s how it is for everybody but you shouldn’t go off thinking your billy bad@$$ just because you got training somewhere . If you do some one will end up training their kid with your gun some day .
McLuvin on 08 Dec 2010 at 9:29 pm #
I agree with Big Bear. Most military trained shooters are piss poor at best. Some know what they are doing but not a high percentage.
big bear29 on 09 Dec 2010 at 1:31 am #
Some people that have had military training know what they are doing and some don’t .
I knew these two guys that were former special forces , navy seals and delta force , and after seeing these guys shoot it made me wonder what they did to get in those outfits because they couldn’t shoot for $#!* , I wouldn’t trust these guys with slingshots let alone highpower assault rifles .
But here is another example . My grandfather served in WW2 as an office clerk for the military , to my knowledge he never saw combat and only had the basic training that he received at boot camp . Decades later he’s blind as a bat and had shakie hands due to arthritis and he could still draw his .357 revolver and hit a target the size of a marble at a range of about seventy yards on the first try . He never practiced , he only used his gun when he had to shoot something and that was not often .
For those of you that will doubt what I just put down about the size of the target he would hit you should know that he had a pond on his property and any time he saw a snapping turtle in his pond he would shoot it in the eye from his front porch seventy yards away. Whether he was shooting at turtles , mountain lions , wolves or snakes he rarely had to fire more than once .
Angryvikingman on 09 Dec 2010 at 2:45 am #
I have military buddies that said there were people in the military who couldn’t qualify at 7 yards with a pistol or rifle. Some people are just crappy shooters. That said, I’ll have to talk to some special forces guys to see if They have any marksmanship requirements that have to be met to get in to SF, because I don’t know right off hand.
big bear29 on 09 Dec 2010 at 3:34 am #
These guys were terrible with a gun and one of the guys nearly shot himself in the foot . That said I think that you do have to meet some marksmanship requirements to be in some special forces groups but I’m not sure if that is the same for all of them .
Ultenth on 09 Dec 2010 at 7:47 am #
@AngryViking
The problem with brass catchers is the added bulk (not just weight, but awkward additional size that you could hit into stuff to make noise), the fact it unbalances the weapon, and the fact that brass catchers on sidearms are even more amplifed with these issues. How are you supposed to easily holster a brasscatcher mounted 1911? And also forget about that scope or whatever you want to put onto your pistol, won’t fit with a catcher on it. The additional noise could probably be easily countered by putting some sort of padding inside the brass catcher, or else the noise the brass will make as it hits the walls inside will be too loud to be safe.
As for reloading, quick loaders can be pretty easily learned to be very fast with, though you still have to take a second to toss the spent brass into a bag before you reload. And the loaders with magnetic holders are fairly quick and easy to reload. Really though you could alternatively carry a clip fed pistol and just use a magazine speed loader and in the end probably come out ahead. I just wish there were an easier way to handle spent brass, and more semi-auto’s that were easier to modify to have a softer slide action without hurting the long term lifespan of a pistol.
@McLuvin
Yeah, I agree with the issues on the Nagrant, what about something like the russian PSS, MSP or S4M’s? The MSP especially interests me as a backup sidearm, as due to it’s derringer type design would also address the issue of thrown brass. Supposedly they fire standard 7.62x39mm rounds, but I’ve never fired one so for full suppression they might require a slightly modified round.
Angryvikingman on 09 Dec 2010 at 8:39 am #
I never said anything about a brass catcher on a sidearm, just rifle or shotgun. Generally you’ll be able to scavenge more pistol ammo than rifle ammo, so its not as important to save the brass. Why on earth would you want to try to load a mag in the middle of battle? If you’re carrying a decent load out, then by the time you ran through your 5 or so mags of pistol ammo, you’re screwed anyway. Carry 300 rounds rifle and 100 pistol. You probably won’t use it all up. A loaded 30 round mag weighs what, a pound?(plus or minus an ounce) So you really could carry 600 rounds @ 20lbs or so. (If you were just carrying a battle loadout) Theres no excuse to run out of ammo, except failure to carry the proper amount, or a super extended fire fight.
Ultenth on 09 Dec 2010 at 9:27 am #
And you don’t think super extended firefights will happen after Z-day? And personally I’d rather save some of my weight for food, water, hygenie, medicane, maybe a sleeping bag or at least blanket, etc. etc. than carrying around 10-15 fully loaded clips. It’s survival, not a war, you don’t have a team of logistics people coming through to give you water and food and medicane between every battle, you need to carry your own, as well as weapons and ammo. I’d much rather be light, stealthy, mobile and versatile then try to be a walking armory.
Ideally you should never be by yourself anyway, and if you’re not then it wouldn’t be that hard to stagger out reload times when needing to reload clips. Speed loaders make the process pretty quick and painless once you become accustomed to them. Personally I think that Z-day survival will be more of a marathon than a sprint. At least if you’re not a complete idiot in the first few weeks.
McLuvin on 09 Dec 2010 at 9:53 am #
@ultenth
Those guns would be terrible for zombies. Even if you lived in Russia you couldn’t stockpile a significant amount of ammo. It would be impossible to reload spent cases. You are focusing too much on action noise. Any normal pistol with a suppressor would be better than those. The sound of the weapon cycling is not very loud. Only zombies already in your immediate vicinity would be able to hear it. This is one instance where the .45ACP has a slight advantage over the 9mm for zombies. Normally the extra power is wasted but the lower velocity means finding subsonic ammo is easier.
3-15 INF on 09 Dec 2010 at 10:08 am #
In a SHTF situation, you need to be bold, decisive, and use all of your advantages while you still posess them. Those advantages atrophy after the initial fall and push. Food and water are the most important long term considerations. Shelter is next- one with security.
Weapons are just a tool like my ax or socket wrenches. The weapons you start out with may not be the ones you end up with. They will get more primitive as the situation is prolonged. Many ammo, food and water caches will be abandoned by others or the owner will be dead.
The longer the crisis lasts, more supplies will be exhausted and desperation in the streets will highten. You can plan for whatever crisis you imagine, and end up using those supplies for something alltogether different.
All the weapons mentioned have their uses. Just learn to be good at all of them. proficient is acceptable. In a protracted battle with no resupply, you have to be flexible. Lever action, assault rifle, pump shotgun, crossbow, bolt rifle, whatever. Learn to use them and their strengths/ weaknesses and act accordingly. I’m preparing for whats ahead, not science fiction. I suggest you all do the same.
Morgan. on 09 Dec 2010 at 8:42 pm #
Yeah I’ll admit I’ve served with some real retards. (Had one cat from the Congo that sprayed an M-16 on full auto down a firing line during BCT. Didn’t hit anything but air but sure scared the fire ought me) But I’m artillerly and every unit I’ve been in made sure you could shoot and shoot well. EOD seems to be the same way if not more so. You gotta realize though that there’s retards,mediocre and experts every where you go. Some skills are just as important as being able to shoot like clearing rooms,finding and purifing water,foraging for food,maintaining vehicles,staying physically fit,picking locks and firstaid. You can’t just be a super crack shot and expect to survive on pure firepower. You gotta be well rounded.
ronald on 09 Dec 2010 at 8:49 pm #
i love my g3 and m 16 or ar15 but the colt .34 revolver is cool to still is going stroung since 1837
McLuvin on 09 Dec 2010 at 10:39 pm #
Where exactly is the Colt .34cal revolver going strong?
Or any caliber Colt of any style? They barely even make guns anymore. Other than their government contracts they are merely a footnote in firearms history.
big bear29 on 10 Dec 2010 at 3:00 pm #
I agree . I checked out their site and they have very little in the way of anything , it seems like the only thing they do alot of is decorating their guns .
Docwade on 11 Dec 2010 at 8:17 am #
3-15 infantry
If you’re just going to disregard the pretext of zombies as the foe you will be preparing against, why bother posting? This IS a zombie forum after all, and doesn’t fall under the genre of science fiction but rather cult horror.
3-15 INF on 13 Dec 2010 at 2:33 pm #
Because I seriously doubt that these guys are spending thousands of dollars and hours upon countless hours to train for that. Good pretext to discuss weapons and tactics but there are more immediate threats.
Angryvikingman on 14 Dec 2010 at 2:32 am #
I personally have spent close to 10,000 dollars on guns, ammo, and accessories in the past 7 years. I don’t spend countless hours training, but I try to spend a few hours a month doing rapid fire and reload drills, just so I don’t get too rusty.
3-15 INF on 18 Dec 2010 at 10:17 pm #
yeah and really- i have read your posts- you’re not training for zombies- you’re getting ready for the same thing i am- when it all falls apart
3-15 INF on 18 Dec 2010 at 10:21 pm #
oh, by the way- you guys are talking about “ex” special forces and seals shooting poorly- are you really that fucking that retarded?!!? They are lying to you. If they ever were in the military, they were were POGS. Don’t be the idiot that believes their lies.
Angryvikingman on 18 Dec 2010 at 10:41 pm #
As I have always said, “Zombies are a metaphor”. I figure if I’m prepared for zombies, then I’m prepared for anything. Gonna hopefully drop a few grand as soon as taxes come in and buy more gear.
Angryvikingman on 19 Dec 2010 at 12:16 am #
And about crappy shooters in the military, I was just talking about grunts. I’ve met some ex-SF guys, but never shot with any. Not a lot of people grew up shooting, or have as much experience with a gun. I can understand why some would suck at shooting, at least during bootcamp. Guys that can’t shoot need to be in the rear with the gear.
McLuvin on 19 Dec 2010 at 5:55 pm #
When I talk about Military/Police marksmanship I’m talking about the majority. There will always be members of every group that are shooting enthusiasts and spend there own time and money to be profficient. Special forces soldiers and SWAT cops are much more highly trained than the average grunt or beat cop. When it comes to pure shooting though, they still fall far behind a good competition shooter. If facing an organised group that special training would be very useful. If facing mindless hordes I’ll take a crack shot with a cool head anyday.
3-15 INF on 25 Dec 2010 at 2:40 pm #
In any infantry platoon, half don’t shoot anything but their issue weapons, and only 25 percent own their own weapons. I’d consider 10 percent of any infantry to be great shots. Every man in my platoon could consistently hit an aimed shot with an M4 to an individuals head at 100m, and failure drill (2 in the chest, 1 in the head) at 25M in less than 2 seconds. They can clear malfunctions and have the gun up and running again in less than 10 seconds using immediate/ remedial action, speed reload in less than 5 seconds, and tactical reload in less than 10. That is the standard we uphold. There are some who could do better, but this is the minimum.
Notice I did not mention the size of groups or long range shooting. Neither apply to the discussion. A man that can score 40 out of 40 every time on a US Army qualification course using his issue weapon, owns and practices with his own weapons, and is mentally prepared to take another’s life, from point blank range to 300M is truly dangerous, and don’t discount that. I’m sure there are many people who have never been in the military that can do that, I’m sure. The guys who get paid to keep up that minimum just might have and advantage, ya think?
Angry, I have no doubt you are ready- maybe over ready. haha
Morgan. on 25 Dec 2010 at 11:00 pm #
BEWARE OF POGS!!!!! (They think they know everything and they’re retarded espically fresh officers)
Morgan. on 25 Dec 2010 at 11:00 pm #
And Fobbits
wheelgunner on 23 Jan 2011 at 3:40 am #
Am I the only person on here that dislikes the AR15 platform and the .223?
Angryvikingman on 23 Jan 2011 at 4:01 am #
@Wheelgunner
I really prefer the .308 caliber, but its way more expensive and there are almost no adapters to fire 22lr for training. HK has one, but they’re like $400, almost impossible to find mags for and you have to replace the whole stock, buffer spring and you have to use a barrel insert. I had an FN FAL which I loved, and an HK SR9TC that literally gave me wood the first time I shot it. The AR is cost effectve, has training adaptors, and more accessories than you can shake a stick at. Its also accurate/lethal past 500 yards. (.308 is too, but like I said, its costly, although the price is coming down.) The cost of shooting it is why I actually switched to the AR platform.
wheelgunner on 23 Jan 2011 at 3:32 pm #
Cost efficientcy is why I own shotguns, honestly. You heard about Winchester’s new buck ‘n ball loads? Or a .17. THose things are sweet. Been meaning to test the penetration on a skull, but haven’t been able to find anything of comparable toughness. Coconut or watermelon, perhaps?
I honestly haven’t found an “assault” type rifle that I like yet. Can never seem to hit the broad side of a barn with one, and rattling clips irritate me to no end. I do not like the lack of stopping power on the .223. Admittedly, I’d rather pack around a single shot Sharps with fifty rounds than a clip fed monster with 200. The ability to knock out an engine block appeals to me.
big bear29 on 23 Jan 2011 at 9:08 pm #
I saw that KSG shotgun you where talking about and I’m not impressed . It holds 7 shells in both of its tubes and one in the chamber and it has a selector switch that lets you switch from using one tube to the other . NO THANK YOU . It may look cool but you can get a higher ammo capacity with a drum fed saiga or as-12 and you only have to reload it at one point not two seperate tubes so the KSG will take longer to reload than either of those two . Heck you could probably reload and fire more shots with a regular shotgun than you could with the ksg in the same amount of time . The ksg may hold more ammo but unless they plan on setting it up to be magazine fed it would just take to long to fully reload it after you fire off all the shells . Plus you have to pull it away from your shoulder to reload it since it is so close to your body and any time you have to switch to the other tube you have to reach back and flip a little switch that is within a few inches of your body . Also based upon appearances it looks like it could have some problems with the reloading mechanism if the shooter was wearing gloves , because you have to reach up in there and reload each tube seperately . It just looks like a shooting glove would have plenty of stuff to get caught on .
This might have some police applications but I doubt any military would ever favor it , unless they made an altered miltary varient that was magazine fed and had the selector switch further forward . The saiga and as-12 fire faster , can hold more ammo and can be reloaded quicker .
wheelgunner on 24 Jan 2011 at 12:12 am #
Finally got to check out a saiga. They worth $600 and mods?
big bear29 on 24 Jan 2011 at 1:00 am #
@wheelgunner
They are to my knowledge the cheapest mag fed shotgun there is . The as-12 , protecta , street sweeper and other large capacity military shotguns cost several grand where as the saiga costs in the hundreds . The saiga is a reliable gun and once you add up its price and the cost of any mods you do to it , it will still probably be cheaper than any of the other guns listed and thats before you start modding them .
big bear29 on 24 Jan 2011 at 1:05 am #
@wheelgunner
P.S.
The Saiga-12K-040 Taktika is supposed to be the best variant of the shotgun out there . Here is some info I got off wikipedia about it . This could save you some money on mods .
Recently there has been made a newly configured version of the Saiga 12. Called the Saiga Taktika mod 040, it features an extended magazine well, last round bolt hold open (recently produced very rarely and replaced with manual bolt hold), hinged dust cover with Picatinny rail for mounting optics, picatinny rail gas block, and a newly designed 8-round magazine (not interchangeable with other Saiga-12 models).[citation needed]
This new design seems to address every deficency the Saiga 12 had in function and flexible configuration. Gone is the traditional AK “rock and lock” mag system and with it the difficulties associated with mag insertion using 12 gauge shells. Now mag insertion is straight up into the magazine well and can be done with only one hand. The hinged dustcover with picatinny rail makes mounting optics simpler, and is also closer to the bore axis, making sighting of optics far easier. The gas-block rail system allows for the addition of combat lights and vertical foregrips. The last round bolt hold open gives the user instant feedback that the weapon is empty and allows for a quicker magazine change.
wheelgunner on 24 Jan 2011 at 1:35 am #
Thanks, bear. I’ve finally got all the guns I have every really wanted, and am in the market. Open for ideas, if you would.
Angryvikingman on 24 Jan 2011 at 1:38 am #
The Saiga, after all of the essential mods would only end up being at max, about $800. (This is if you don’t opt for moving the trigger group, or do the mod yourself which I have seen done, and there are guides on how to do it.)
What you’re gonna need:
Saiga – $500-$600 (They’re retailing for this range around here. Try and haggle.)
MD Arms 5 position gas plug – $25
New tri/quad rail grip – $125
Foregrip – $25
20 rnd MD Arms Drum – $80
Non essential mods
Self cleaning gas puck (Seen but IDK the price)
Tapco Pistol grip stock – $60
Holosight -$50-$300 (Holosights are best so you still have a clear field of view around the optic, which is a good thing when shotgunning)
lights, lasers, ect.
wheelgunner on 24 Jan 2011 at 2:27 am #
Not sure about the foregrip. Never hve used the holo either. Not much for scopes. Wonder how well it would shoot slug…
wheelgunner on 09 Feb 2011 at 3:12 am #
But viking, thats not a walther or a twenty-two. That said, was it worth the year of slobbering over it? Looks nice.
Shotgun Brother on 21 Feb 2011 at 1:54 pm #
Don’t, no, NEVER … use a Saiga12. Even if you get it for free. I am from russia and used it some time for hunting. Believe me. This “stick” isn’t worth a penny, especially if you have to trust your weapon to survive.
My recommendation:
(Affordable)
Mossberg 500. Especially the 500 Special – aka. “Roadblocker” with a heat shield. — You will not pass –
(If you can get one)
SPAS 15 — Waiter! There is brain in my soup –
(If you are really lucky)
Auto Assault -12 / AA-12 — Hail to the king baby –
I would prefer shotguns. Most of them are simple enough so that you dont have to maintain them every time and you can produce the ammunition on your own ( simple procedure. fast+easy = much of ammo).
But the author forget one of the best weapons against a lot of zombies. We always forgett about it — The Flame.
PS.
Let freedom ring with a shotgun blast
Docwade on 21 Feb 2011 at 7:21 pm #
I bought my 8mm M53 in case I need to stop a marauding band of 22lr wielders.
McLuvin on 22 Feb 2011 at 2:50 pm #
When my sparrow gets here you won’t even hear me coming?
8mm, hah!
wheelgunner on 24 Feb 2011 at 12:41 pm #
Doc-You got a buzzsaw packed away?
Docwade on 26 Feb 2011 at 7:25 pm #
McLuvin – you’re not exactly a stealth ninja creeping around from what I remember!
McLuvin on 26 Feb 2011 at 9:37 pm #
You must have me mistaken with someone else. I’m silent and deadly.
Wait a minute…
Docwade on 26 Feb 2011 at 9:47 pm #
Hey, how about best shotgun thread and why. I vote saiga 12, full mod with magwell. Yeah the mags need moded and become weapon specific, but my two rock. Oh yeah, Benelli sucks!
Docwade on 26 Feb 2011 at 9:53 pm #
Just kidding for all you Benelli lovers out there.
Docwade on 26 Feb 2011 at 9:54 pm #
You know, Benelli love is unnatural.
McLuvin on 26 Feb 2011 at 10:01 pm #
At least with a benelli I don’t have to rebuild it to make it cool. Benellis are just about perfect from the factory. Saigas are put together by some communist bastard who can’t see straight from a combination of malnutrition and too much vodka.
Docwade on 26 Feb 2011 at 10:05 pm #
How’s that tenth round for speed from your perfect gun?
McLuvin on 26 Feb 2011 at 10:17 pm #
If you can’t finish the fight with eight shots a shotgun was a poor choice to begin with. My ninth round is only a transition away.
Docwade on 26 Feb 2011 at 10:23 pm #
Always anticipating 8 or less in an encounter? Poor Benelli, gonna be left there all alone on the ground.
big bear29 on 27 Feb 2011 at 12:58 am #
@Docwade
Alliance armament sells twenty and thirty round drums that don’t need to be modded to work with a saiga and they work fine with a full auto version of the gun . They have comparison videos on youtube where they compare the md-20 to the wraithmaker that they sell and the wraithmaker was way better than the md-20 . The md-20 jammed up like crazy , had to be modded to even work with the saiga and it was bigger than the wraithmaker which had the same ammo capacity .
Just thought I would let you know if you were looking for some saiga drums that you wouldn’t have to mod .
Docwade on 27 Feb 2011 at 1:05 am #
Both drums require fitting and that comparison video was put on by alliance. I have owned md20 drums and they work just fine. There is enough variation between saiga 12′s that even the stick mags require some fitting. Alliance’s 20 and 30 round drums require so much fitting that they offer a “service” where you send them your S12 and they mod the shotgun to fit their drum.
Docwade on 27 Feb 2011 at 1:08 am #
I sold all my s12 drums and went with stick mags only since I moded my s12′s for magwells. I found the drums too bulky for both pouch carry and when mounted.
Docwade on 27 Feb 2011 at 1:44 am #
Oh, and the “reliability service” alliance offers used to cost $180. I remember a great deal of bad blood on the saiga 12 forum over alliance and their bashing of MD arms. Personally, I would prefer a doublestack mag. The AA drum is 3x as heavy as the MD drum. The diameter was measured from the max diameter of the md’s back plate mount studs, the AA drum is taller, the AA drum is an open design requiring a zippered dust jacket. The AA drum is a nice movie novelty. But they’re pushing a 20 round mag that costs $379. $379 people.
McLuvin on 27 Feb 2011 at 2:26 am #
Stick mags are definitely the way to go. You can carry at least 4 10rd mags for every 20rd drum.
Angryvikingman on 27 Feb 2011 at 3:39 am #
You know, if you made a tombstone mag like the 100rnd surefire AR mags, then I bet you could get 20 rnds in a saiga stick mag. Just something to think about. (BTW those surefire mags are based off the mags from the spectre. Its not an original design.)
Docwade on 27 Feb 2011 at 7:36 am #
The 12 gauge shell has enough going against it already regarding a doublestack mag. I don’t think any of the current mag producers even want to think about a quad stack design.
Docwade on 27 Feb 2011 at 7:38 am #
And the Spectre mags are loosely based off Suomi coffin mags.
Angryvikingman on 27 Feb 2011 at 7:42 pm #
Yeah, thats whay I meant, coffin mags, why did I put tombstone? Guess my mind was elsewhere. Yeah, not too many mag options for rimmed ammo. A shotgun shell with a rimless case would have lots of possibilties.
Docwade on 27 Feb 2011 at 11:59 pm #
I hear MD arms already has their working prototype double stack mags for the saiga 12 but are waiting on patent work to go through before releasing.
Angryvikingman on 28 Feb 2011 at 12:23 am #
Thats smart, considering that everyone will be trying to copy it.
Docwade on 28 Feb 2011 at 1:21 pm #
I need to try a surefire mag. I haven’t adapted one yet for my magwell, but the open class guys seem to like them.
Angryvikingman on 28 Feb 2011 at 4:58 pm #
Sadly, I have to make due with 30rnd mags and an 8 shot Mossberg 500 this saturday at the 3 gun I’m going to. At least the stages I’ll have to shoot will be low round counts for the rifle. Sadly, theres a shotgun stage that has like 23 rounds. A saiga would speed that up a hell of a lot.
Docwade on 01 Mar 2011 at 1:47 pm #
He’ll yes it would. I have a spectacular magwell converted S12 with Aimpoint H1 that has everything my first one has except the auto last round bolt hold open for the low low price of $2k
Docwade on 06 Mar 2011 at 7:03 pm #
I tried a promag today. Doesn’t seem to like them one bit. The beretta mags made by them work fine in my storm carbine, jet not in my s12.
Hayes187 on 27 Mar 2011 at 9:25 pm #
You left out the ak 47, ar 15 is really good but the ammo is harder to find now and would probably be even harder to find after Z-day
Angryvikingman on 28 Mar 2011 at 2:14 am #
.556/223 hard to find? I could walk out of my house and be sitting on top of 10, 000 rounds in 20 minutes. The walmarts here carry over 1k rnds each, where as they have next to no AK ammo. In the US AR ammo is way more plentiful than AK ammo.
McLuvin on 30 Mar 2011 at 3:56 pm #
True. In the US 223 is not hard to find. Globally 7.62×39 is the most common but not locally.
amy on 04 Apr 2011 at 11:34 am #
it just so happens i like in england.. goddamnit! i guess im screwed when it gets down to it but from listening to youi guys ill be alot less screwed than the other guys in england that dont have a clue, >:)
QAZZY on 18 May 2011 at 5:32 pm #
With 5.56x45mm and .223 ammo, buy a rifle chambered in 5.56. It can fire both while the .223 chambered gun will eventually burst from firing 5.56. While the .223 has more powder, since the military round has thicker sides, it has to do with how they’re chambered. By recently most AR-15 manufacturers made sure the chambers won’t burst with either ammo in their chambering.
I got a AR-15 with some 30-round mags (use for general-purpose, and with a bayonet), but a 100-round mag when I’m buttoned up in a fortification.
Glenn138 on 22 Sep 2011 at 7:09 pm #
I will tell you right now that you are not getting in to any Marine Armories. I cannot give out details but lets just say that if you don’t have a qualified individuals with you, you aren’t getting in.
Glenn138 on 22 Sep 2011 at 7:19 pm #
Another thing is that the M4 Carbine doesn’t have auto capabilities. That would be the M4A1 and M16A3. The Browning would be too damn heavy to lug around without multiple people to carry the tripod, barrel and receiver. Now if you want to use anything, I recommend a knife, E-tool, an M16A4, 8 Magazines, and some form of 9mm (Glock or Beretta) with a cleaning kit and up to 4-6 magazines for it. Keep in mind that if you don’t know how to maintain the weapon, then it is useless to you for prolonged engagements. There’s nothing that the older M16 cleaning kits can’t clean. May take longer but very versatile.
Oldefarte on 28 Nov 2011 at 3:31 pm #
Point #1 – Zombies are only a danger close up. Therefore, even assault weapons (AR-15/M-16 and variants, AK-47 and -74, Mini-14 and -30), with 400 to 600 yard effective ranges are “overkill”.
Consequently, close-in weapons (pistols and shotguns) are preferable and, of the two, shotguns are the better choice. They are devastatingly effective at close range (even with a birdshot load), are usable by those with minimal training, and allow a margin of aiming error, needful, especially when shooting under stress.
Point #2 – Lots of folks here have rhapsodized about the KelTec KSG-14 with its 11 to 15 round capacity, however, cool as it looks, it still requires laborious shell by shell reloading. Moreover, it’s a pump action and pump actions are both slower than semi-autos and the act of pumping breaks your aim, adding to the effective cyclic fire rate. By contrast, the SAIGA is loaded with a detachable clip (readily available in 5, 10, and 15 round versions ), which can be changed out extremely quickly and is also semi-auto. Finally, the SAIGA is based on the proven AK system (bolt and blowback), while the KelTec is a bullpup, a design which has had a lot of issues.
Point #3 – Limit the number of calibers used – Ruger, for instance, made a 9mm semi-auto carbine which shared clips (available in 9 to 40 round configurations) with their P series pistols, allowing one both a close and intermediate range kill capacity, using a single loading system. Most revolvers (esp. .38/.357) also have comparably calibered carbines available (mostly lever actions).
Point #4 – There is also the issue of survival hunting. For that, I’d recommend Ruger’s pump action .177 cal. airgun (one pump delivers between 1200 and 1400 fps performance). It’s quiet (no noise to attract “walkers”) and cheap (5 shots per penny) and is capable of taking down squirrels, rabbits, and most birds.
Obviously, if you are talking about fighting off living marauders, the equation changes, but, as for zombie combat, those are my recommendations.
Oldefarte on 28 Nov 2011 at 11:50 pm #
Reading through all of the foregoing comments (ignoring, for a moment, the Rambo-esque antics of a few), I feel the need to further address some of the issues raised.
Firstly, early models of the SAIGA had a lot of QC problems and needed considerable mods to make them work (and to make the available clips fit and feed). Even with those mods and upgrades, however, it still remains the cheapest clip fed shotgun out there. Moreover, the newest “Taktika” model obviates most of the gripes attendant on early models and new magazines are far more likely to work without extensive fitting and modifications.
Secondly, I’ve seen some snarky comments about Rugers, especially their P series semi-autos. Truth be told, Rugers feel like junk compared to a Glock. However, you can buy two 9mm P series and a batch of extra mags for the price of a single Glock in the same caliber. I also find that the Ruger is much easier to break down and clean and the sometimes sloppy tolerances also give the Ruger the capacity to absorb a fair amount of dirt and dust and still function. Additionally, nobody has the number of “after market” offerings which are available for Rugers (including such things as 40 round clips which can be used in their 9mm semi-auto carbine). Besides which, at 50 yards and under, my P series are every bit as accurate as any Glock. If one notices any difference, it is only at ranges not usually pertinent to pistol fights.
Any objections raisable against Ruger’s pistols, however, are not chargeable against their rifles and carbines and the 10/22, for instance, is the premiere .22 cal. semi-auto out there (and with a stunning number of “after market” offerings). And, if you can still find their 9mm carbine (which uses the same clips as the P series pistols), I think you’ll find it superb for use (if a tad heavy for a carbine). Apparently, however, Ruger no longer makes them, but it was a superb idea and I’ve never regretted buying mine.
AND, of course, I doubt anyone can gainsay the quality of the Ruger Mini-14 and Mini-30, which are excellent alternatives to the M-16 and AK-47.
BTW, I have NO economic interest with or in Sturm-Ruger, but I sometimes get put out with the Glock fanatics on these forums who think that a gun isn’t competent unless it costs more than my first automobile. If you need handguns for an entire family and don’t have Donald Trump’s income, you can do worse than Ruger. IF, however, you are looking for a small “pocket pistol” (e.g., in .380 ACP) spend the money for quality (Colt, Sig-Sauer, etc.). The smaller the weapon the more critical quality is and it’s worth the extra cost.
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