Z-Day: Combat Without Firearms part 1
Part 1: European Edged Weapon Combat Systems
It is a common misconception that Europeans had no form of matrial arts, either with edged weapons, or hand to hand. This misconception is perpetuated because of the very early and fast adaptation and use of firearms by the europeans, whereas the Asian countries either banned the use of firearms, or found them too inaccurate or too expensive to deploy in the necessary numbers. Japan in particular banned the use of firearms until the end of the 18th century, as they found if offensive that any peasant could kill a trained samurai at range with a firearm. The Europeans had just as rich, complicated, and ultimately effective martial combat systems as the Asians, but they fell by the wayside with the use of firearms. There are many combat manuals for European Martial Arts, and a resurgence of those who are studying them. One such organization that advocates the teachings of these systems is ARMA.(Website link) ARMA is generally based on the German and Italian forms of combat. The main weapon of which is the Longsword, but is not limited to just one weapon like Kendo. Here in this article, ZAC intends to educate you in the devestating effectiveness of European Martial Arts.
Watch this to see how effective Longsword is against another armed opponent. This at 1/4 to 1/2 speed. Full speed is too fast to demonstrate the techniques. (We know zombies aren’t going to swing swords, this is in case you encounter other survivors armed with swords or machetes.) These moves are also devestatingly effective against unarmed opponents/zombies.
In addition to the Longsword, Europeans used a weapon called a Rondel, it is much like a Dagger, or Dirk, but specifically designed to split chainmail links and pierce other types of armor. Usually with a triangle shaped blade, and commonly only one sharpened edge.
Watch this to see Rondel Fighting. It also applies to other knife fighting techniques with single and double edged knives. The purpose of this is to slash and stab your opponent.
These Videos are intended to illustrate how devestating and effective European Martial Arts can be. One can only imagine how effective these tactics would be against the undead. When I was an Active member of ARMA, we trained one on one, but we also trained against multiple armed opponents. I once fought and won against 3 armed opponents. Since zombies aren’t going to be swinging swords, using this style of combat could prove to be outstandingly effective.
Here are some more videos that showcase the use of Medieval European Edged Weapons:
—Sparring
—Longsword vs. Katana Sparring (Good east vs west fight showing the differences in styles)
—This is a sword form you can practice to see how demanding swordsmanship is, but its a form you can master in an afternoon. (BTW love this guys beard!)
I realize this is more of a visual and video filled article, but to discribe this in words is nearly impossible. Please watch all of the videos before you comment. This will be a series highlighting edged weapon fighting forms that are easily available for study in civilized parts of the world.(Americas, Europe, ect.)
You can also get equipment to practice this European Martial Art for very cheap.
Equipment:
Waster(Practice Sword) We recommend wood or plastic. The foam swords wear out fast and don’t accurately portray the fighting characteristics of the sword. These range in price from $7-$30
If you wish to spar with others, then there is some safety equipment that you will need.
Fencing Mask
Gloves (Hockey/Lacrosse gloves are preferred. Or Armored gloves)
Arm Pads
Shin pads (Not necessary, but geting wacked in the shin really hurts like hell.)
A lot of this stuff can be found cheaper at large sporting goods stores, or in used equipment stores like Play it again sports.
Comments (202)








celticrogue on 27 Apr 2011 at 4:06 pm #
First. Interesting stuff here though viking, I’m starting to get interested in melee combat so thanks for this article.
HMPlatinum on 27 Apr 2011 at 6:18 pm #
I spent a bit of time with the SCA in Japan when swords were only made out of rattan and duct-tape. The skills I used then (and am woefully out of practice with now) were a mix of European and Asian blade and shield arts. Longsword, hand-and-a-half, katana, battle axe, mace, and a variety of shields and bucklers were the items of choice.
I’m still not convinced that a blade is the best route against a zombie, but it beats a short stick, that’s for sure.
Angryvikingman on 27 Apr 2011 at 6:31 pm #
@HMPlatinum
Well, fighting in SCA if you get hit you lose that limb. In ARMA if you get hit once, the match is over, unless you’re in armor. If you’re in armor, you beat on each other until one of you can’t continue. LOL! Fights are with real swords that have a tip cover. When sparring you start over after each hit. Its a bit harder on you than SCA, at least from what I’ve seen of SCA around here.
HMPlatinum on 27 Apr 2011 at 7:16 pm #
I like the ARMA way better.
HAVE AT YOU!!!
celticrogue on 27 Apr 2011 at 7:38 pm #
Sorry for being slightly off subject here, but i have been reading the vast amount of articles on here and repeatedly I have found that people keep stating zombies are real, and have happened multiple times in the past. I know that the possibility of zombies is very real and that it isn’t b.s. that it can happen, because there are various ways it can. But are there any examples or any places I can go to research examples of these past outbreaks?
Semper Cogitant on 27 Apr 2011 at 8:38 pm #
It is sad that so many people seem to assume that European fighters were basically untrained. Like in any other culture, warriors in Europe spent years honing their art and were deadly with their weapons.
I once saw a demo at an SCA gathering a friend took me too many years ago, one guy fighting like a knight, the other like a samurai. The knight won by a wide margin, though I think he was much more experienced than the samurai guy.
For myself, I used to fence and was pretty good, but an Epee’ has very limited use against the undead. Perhaps I should have done sabre.
Practicing with a long blade is something I should practice, as skill with one could be useful in many survival situations.
Angryvikingman on 27 Apr 2011 at 10:24 pm #
A long sword can be so brutally efficient, and can be used so many more ways than a Katana by using the cross guard, pommel, and grabbing the blade for more force. You can learn the basis of the entire fighting style in 30 minutes, but not master it for a life time.
McLuvin on 28 Apr 2011 at 12:54 pm #
My experience with edged weapons is limited to short blades. I think a European style sword would be a good choice against the undead. The only disadvantage it has is it’s weight. If you are packing all your gear every pound counts. I do like the added durability over the katana though.
Texas Dead on 28 Apr 2011 at 1:07 pm #
I’d love to have personal side arms such as bayonets attached to lacrosse sticks to purge zombies of their insides, Then again the traditional ball and chain approach for bashing zombie brains would also be very fun. If I ran into a zombie stripper though, I’d just slap em with my pimp hand for fun
Angryvikingman on 28 Apr 2011 at 1:24 pm #
Well since I’m a cold steel fan, let me lay out the weight problem for you.
Hand and a Half Sword
Specifications:
Weight: 49 oz. =3.06lbs
Blade Thickness: 1/5″
Blade Length: 33 1/2″
Handle: 9 1/8″ long. Leather Wrapped
Steel: 1055 Carbon
Overall Length: 42 5/8″
Sheath: Leather/Wood Scabbard with Steel Fittings
Warrior Series O Katana
Specifications:
Weight: 48 oz. = 3 lbs.
Blade Thick: 5/16″
Blade Length: 36″
Handle: 13″ Samé (Ray Skin). black braid cord with brass Menuki
Steel: 1055 Carbon
Overall Length: 49″
Sheath: Black Lacquered Wood w/blue violet cover bag
Only one ounce of weight difference. Still at only 3lbs, thats a drop in the bucket. For all of you military guys out there, how much gear do you hump around in the field, between 40-80lbs depending on the weather and mission, right? If you’re only carrying a medium scavenging pack, weapons and a 500 rnd ammo load, you’re looking at right around the 40lb mark. If its distributed correctly, then you’re not really even going to notice an extra 3 lbs. The thing about the Katana, is its only got one edge. Lol!
big bear29 on 28 Apr 2011 at 2:42 pm #
I would prefer the hand and a half sword , but I would probably have to custom make my own sword . I have hands the size of a bears paws rather than normal size hands . Just one of my hands will cover up just about all of the grip on about every sword that I have ever held including several hand and a half swords .
HMPlatinum on 28 Apr 2011 at 4:56 pm #
Then all you need is a shield with some wicked spikes and a bastard sword, or one sword in each paw for florentine buzz-saw zombie slaying.
Angryvikingman on 28 Apr 2011 at 5:27 pm #
You can also put a knife blade on the edge of a shield so it sticks out about 3 inches and sweep and cut with the shield, that way you can use the shield offensively. A little less dangerous than a shield bash. Spear and shield fighting is also effective, then when you inevitably lose your spear, you still have a sword. Go all Spartan on those zombies asses!
McLuvin on 28 Apr 2011 at 6:54 pm #
I hope it never comes down to close quarters zombie fighting. With all these blades swinging around everyone will end up wounded. Add to that the infected blood flying everywhere and we just killed ourselves. Thank god for .22 bulk packs. I’m staying at range as long as possible.
Semper Cogitant on 28 Apr 2011 at 8:16 pm #
McLuvin is right that close quarters combat with zombies is something to be avoided strenuously. However, in a Zombie Apocalypse it be inevitable. Foraging would mean entering buildings, and no matter how careful you are there are going to be surprises from time to time. The key is to get it done fast and get fast and if possible get some distance and go to the gun. We should be prepared for it, even though we plan to avoid it.
Angryvikingman on 28 Apr 2011 at 9:17 pm #
As I’ve said a few times before, if they’re slow, and there’s only a few, I’d go for the sword first just to save ammo. If there’s say 3, just go in on the far left(if you’re right hand dominant) and take off the leg of the first zombie, as you go past, triangle step, and hit it in the back of the head. Catch the middle one off guard, and a quick thrust into the back of the skull takes out the second one.The third one would have turned around by now, but hes all alone, so a quick cut staight down into the top of the head and its all over with in about 5-10 seconds. Quick, quiet, a good work out, and saves the ammo for when you’ll really need it. As far as blood spray, if zombies have no heartbeat, then there will be no blood spray, right? Also, when fighting close quarters with other swordsmen, there are certain tactics that are employed based on your surroundings. For bottle necks, just a single man can shut down a hallway, or doorway, and with one other man, they can take turns resting and fighting for quite some time. For more open areas where a few men can stand abreast, then you fight in pairs, one watching the others weak points and keeping him clear of foes. You can adapt to anything if you just use your head and stay calm.
big bear29 on 28 Apr 2011 at 9:51 pm #
I think that it would probably be a good idea to have certain individuals designated and outfitted for specific roles . When it comes to close range melee combat or for entering a building to look for supplies , I would have heavily armored fighters in front armed with melee weapons and short range firearms like handguns and shotguns . While the more lightly armored fighters follow them and provide supporting fire in a fight . The guys in the back would snipe any zombies that approached and any that get to close would be taken out by your heavily armored close range fighters .
McLuvin on 28 Apr 2011 at 10:12 pm #
Viking, it doesn’t matter that their blood isn’t pumping. The impacts and momentum of the weapon will create spray. I’m not saying that blade weapons won’t be needed just that I will save them as my last resort. As for quiet kills, I’ll take a suppressed .22.
Angryvikingman on 28 Apr 2011 at 10:19 pm #
I’ve got one, they’re nice.
Ronin666 on 29 Apr 2011 at 3:56 am #
Glad to see the Euro sword arts getting a mention, like you say a lot of people tend to think the warriors just ran mindlessly into battle slashing about at random.
Double edge or single edge both have their advantages and disadvantages, just as long or short, curved or straight do. I recently added a CS Grosse Messer to my collection, compared to a katana or a hand and 1/2 its a weighty beast, not something you would want to be swinging for too long but built like a tank. I just need a nice saber and a jian to pretty much have something from every major civilization.
I think matching your weapon to your battlefield plays an important part with blades. A Scottish claymore or a ODachi are fine in the open if you have room to swing the thing without hitting obstacles or your fellow team members, even your average katana or longsword needs a bit of elbow space. Indoors Wakazashi ,dharb, parang and goloks, basically machete length blades come into their own. Again these southern asian weapons have their own fighting style and while mastering any blade based martial art takes years, getting the basics down will suffice against an undead un-thinking and un-armed opponent such as a zed. the main thing to learn is how to hurt your enemy and not yourself while waving big sharp things around :)
Leor on 29 Apr 2011 at 8:46 am #
The problem with lugging a sword around isn’t going to be weight but bulk.
On the move you’ll probably be holding a rifle so you’d have to strap your sword to your back or something. doesn’t seem very comforatable to me.
big bear29 on 29 Apr 2011 at 5:00 pm #
If you are running for your life from a bunch of zombies that want to eat you the last thing that should be worried about is weather or not you are comfortably carrying your sword . Also swords aren’t that big or bulky so storing them on your person should not be that big of a deal .
Leor on 29 Apr 2011 at 8:19 pm #
The “Warrior Series O Katana” mentioned earlier was 49″ long. thats long enough to get stuck on low hanging branches or to make walking through doors a bit more of a chore. I used it as an example but its obvious that all long swords share this problem.
You’d have to carry it somewhere you’d be sure it wouldn’t catch on anything or interfere with proper marksmanship and still be available at the blink of an eye in close quarters.
long swords can’t be folded or tied away like a bedroll. I can’t imagine someone dual wielding a long sword and a rifle so you’d also have to find a solution for that.
it’s not that I’m opposed to melee VS zombies or even longer weapons only that in a situation there’s more to think about then blood splatter and elbow space.
wheelgunner on 29 Apr 2011 at 11:29 pm #
The trick is adding a sword to your equiptment when you are planning your loadout, and not adding one after the fact. If you really want to stand a chance, be prepared for this to become your new religion. This particular thread is my forte.
Beyond any other style of combat, experience is the key here. Technical knowhow will easily see you just as dead as havin no idea what you are supposed to do, and in my experience, usually will only get you to do the wrong thing at the wrong time and get killed in the first ten seconds of the fight. Also, if you are not at least journeyman proficient with a real blade in a real fight, you won’t last long enough to fend of that second zed. Not to burst any bubbles, but somtimes you just have to face the music.
All styles of blade have a traditional way of carrying them, so please don’t try to reinvent the wheel with carrying systems. The traditional ways have this tendancy of being traditional because they work. I can say from trying that modern combat as the “experts” teach it does not include carrying a sword with you for a reason, so be prepared to throw your carfully conceved idea on ramboing it out the window. You HAVE to adapt your walk, stance, and movement paterns to acomodate them. No exceptions.
Also, check out some of the older, slightly smaller, and one handed styles of blade. They are lighter, easier to use, and if you actually get a real one, you can kill with it for hours on end without the gross bulk of a claymore, or any of it’s asian equivalents. It’s all hype. Those big weapons like that are designed to kill a horse from far enough away that the rider can’t squewer you anyway. You really should look into the design principles of the sword before grabbing one. All the crap that everyone is referencing today that the “experts” in medieval combat use are actually from the end of the renaissance, and intended for fencing, and are not truly the nitty-gritty fighting styles that are the most apropriate for the type of combat we are discussing. Zombies are niether hiding inside lobstered plate, or some other gentleman fop trying to duel you over some perceived slight.
On a side note, European monks used to be as amzing as their more famous eastern brothers, just not as appealing to Hollywood. Knights used to be forced to duel them with swords, else the monk would win every time with any other weapon, and they developed western wrestling and the brawl as we know it, quite literally.
Ronin666 on 30 Apr 2011 at 7:54 am #
Good point on the carrying Wheelgunner. Swords are carried on the hip for a reason, fast access.Some Chinese dao have a split part the way down the scabbard to assist in clearing it quicker. Long swords carried on the back is a movie invention mostly. It’s almost impossible to draw a full size katana or longsword from a fixed back scabbard, your arms are simply not long enough. The field and horse swords like Odachi were often carried by a second person, the user would then be free to still carry his katana for use once the Odachi had served it’s purpose.
HMPlatinum on 01 May 2011 at 5:52 pm #
I love steel. Swordfighting used to be my passion.
I think I’d prefer a pry-bar/crowbar instead of a sword. Against a few Z’s, it would serve well for skull-busting (or reaching hand-smashing), and have other uses, too. Against many Z’s, no blade or bar is effective whilst advancing to the rear, which is what you should be doing. Unless we’re in a 28 Days Later scenario with insto-chango rage-zombie, I’m not overly concerned with blood.
If I HAD, ABSOLUTELY HAD to carry a blade, I’d probably go with a one-handed gladius-style blade or kukri, and a shield (and I like the blade addon, Angry).
clancy McClavven on 03 May 2011 at 2:45 pm #
wow. this is productive.
McLuvin on 03 May 2011 at 3:08 pm #
Nice new hobby there, Clancy.
Angryvikingman on 03 May 2011 at 5:48 pm #
Yes, it is productive.
CompShooter on 03 May 2011 at 6:45 pm #
Lots of good points for carrying a sword. While I am proficient with my preferred firearms. I think I’ll stick with a machete since they don’t need reloading either and for me has multiple utility uses while still quiet if the situation calls for it and doesn’t need a lot of skills. Me with a sword of any type would be likened to watching Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
survivor811 on 03 May 2011 at 7:11 pm #
While alot of the above are valid techniques and are able to be used effectively in a situation like this let me just say a few things.
I teach fencing and have tried various other swords and bladed melee weapons, my favorite so far would be the Sai. In fencing the techniques are really only good for modetate ranged combat, however the stances would be second in priority to bladework. the best fencing weapon I have found to be for this kind of combat against a zombie would be Epee. a stabbing weapon with proper grooves to avoid a vacumn once the blade penetrates the target is better than a sword used for cutting and might generally be harder to disloge it from your target. Now like alot of others I would prefer ranged combat and unnessecary risks. One large risk which I have not seen adressed is exposure to infected blood/tissue to open cuts, wounds, or skin. This is one reason why a fencing technique with a stabbing weapon at a reasonable distance would avoid this problem with minimal (but still feasible) risk to exposure to the virus. A cutting weapon, while much easier to use and more satisfying, would increse this risk due to the weapon creating bloodsplatter or cutting peices off the zombie which could eventually lead to infection. A dagger would have the same risk due to proximity rather than splatter.
Angryvikingman on 03 May 2011 at 8:02 pm #
I messed around with some fencing techniques while I was in ARMA, but I can’t see how a flimsy stabbing weapon would be better than a longsword. I can disable a zombie with a longsword by takig off an arm, leg, or head in a single blow. Gonna be hard to hit an eye and pierce the brain through the occular cavity. A longsword wouldn’t get stuck in a body, because generally you’re not stabbing with it unless the opponent is in plate armor or on the ground. An un armored opponent on the ground is easy to remove a sword from, because you can use your foot for leverage. Stabbing through a person in unarmored combat doesn’t cause a suction on the blade because you just put an air hole through them. If you watch some of the cold steel sword videos where they’re cutting meat, you can see how a good sharp large blade will shear bone, and not get stuck.
Luke davies on 04 May 2011 at 1:12 pm #
Well this is very useful for me :P Since i live in the UK firearms arent easy to come by :3 Sword,axe or a baseball bat for me ‘_’
Great article, been a fan for a long time
HMPlatinum on 04 May 2011 at 4:30 pm #
Never underestimate the tire-iron or crowbar.
Angryvikingman on 04 May 2011 at 4:50 pm #
Platinum, they’re good weapons in a pinch, but a 3 foot hex crowbar weighs about 6lbs. Twice what a longsword weighs and 3 times what a machete weighs. Hard to swing those for more than a minute solid.
specially equipped guardsman on 05 May 2011 at 10:58 am #
I’ll take mossberg for 590 alex…what is fix bayonets?
McLuvin on 05 May 2011 at 10:57 pm #
The great sword is definitely too heavy and cumbersome for prolonged use. Unless a sword is your primary weapon you should keep it light and handy.
Angryvikingman on 06 May 2011 at 7:33 am #
Well, the more you use it, the longer you can use it. I’ve seen people who get winded with a 2lb wooden waster after swinging it for 1-2 minutes. Then again, I’ve seen people swing metal great sword wasters for near 15 minutes straight.Truthfully, at my current fitness level, I don’t think I could swing my sword non stop for more than maybe 2-3 minutes. Since I got married I’ve gotten all kinds of out of shape, but I’m working on it again. I guess I’ll do an article on fitness. I’d be just the guy for that given the fact that I’ve seen both ends of the spectrum of fitness.
Any sword you choose will take some getting used to. Although, that great sword would be impossible to use inside because its right about at the 5 foot mark. Thats where 2 shorter weapons would come in handy, like 2 machetes. I really like the new Gladius machetes from cold steel, if they’ll ever actually start seling them. Every time the make a new item, it goes on back order for months.
McLuvin on 06 May 2011 at 9:52 am #
A gladius style sword/machete would be a good choice. Relatively short and light for carry. Fast to maneuver but with enough blade weight to be a good chopper.
Cold steel makes some good stuff. They have a very extensive catalog. You just have to pick the tool that fits your needs.
Angryvikingman on 07 May 2011 at 1:45 pm #
Yeah, light and fast, but short reach. You’d need a shield or another gladius for an effective defense. Then find a suitable kata or form to train with and learn it backwards and forwards.
survivor811 on 07 May 2011 at 3:04 pm #
@ angryvikingman:
“I messed around with some fencing techniques while I was in ARMA, but I can’t see how a flimsy stabbing weapon would be better than a longsword. I can disable a zombie with a longsword by takig off an arm, leg, or head in a single blow. Gonna be hard to hit an eye and pierce the brain through the occular cavity.”
Valid point. I guess it really depends how much training you have in the form of light stabbing weapons. Personally I know for a fact after testing against mounted force plates and human substitute testing materials that I can accuratly hit the eyes or other weak spots on the infecte’s face with enough force to peirce the brain (i even have begun testing against moving targets which are wooden targets on a horizontal pully system) the point is I am comfortable with my abilities. though as you say Not everyone has training in these kinds of weapons. The fencing style also has an advantage because it gives you a full range of moves and attacks in close/narrow places. It also limits hitting friends and family nearby unless they are right in front of you.
I also want to point out that it is good to have some sort of close combat weapon but warning: if you need to use it you are way too close.
Docwade on 07 May 2011 at 10:41 pm #
I like that last line, “if you need to use it, you’re way too close.”
Edged weapons are last resort items requiring far too much physical exertion, too much risk of infection, too much risk of self injury, and a level of required skill more akin to a scalpel than a bludgeon. You won’t be wading into a throng of the undead and come out on the other side fresh as a daisy. Throwing around that big piece of steel for a while? Who’s going to repair that torn rotator cuff? Fencing foil? I think we’ve address that topic some time ago. The posterior orbit isn’t an eggshell and you’re trying to hit it cranked up on adrenaline and under duress. When the bullets are all gone, I think I would prefer the bow with a machete as a backup over trying to haul around and maintain a true sword.
Angryvikingman on 08 May 2011 at 12:06 am #
Omg facepalm. The article is about combat with out firearms. I guess technically a bow isn’t a firearm, but perhaps I should just exclude all projectile weapons.
Eventually there will come a point where you’ll run out of ammo, and yes even arrows. Thus, at some point, you’ll need to use a blade until you can scavenge more. I know how we tend to drift away from he topics, just trying to keep this one on the rails.
(Yes, I know you can retrieve arrows, but you won’t ALWAYS be able to, so you’ll lose them eventually. And yes, even some day, I may run out of ammo.)
specially equipped guardsman on 08 May 2011 at 5:14 am #
So no one sees any utility in carrying a bayonet to turn your primary weapon into a hand to hand weapon?
SMASH/SLASH/THRUST SERIES…EXECUTE
No fire arms huh? how about a spear.
McLuvin on 08 May 2011 at 7:30 am #
Nope. Bayonets are not a good CQB weapon. When added to a rifle you end up with a heavy cumbersome weapon that doesn’t have a very good reach advantage. They were originally a serious compromise to quiet those who still wanted everyone to have a sword. If a 5 pound sword is hard to swing for 5 minutes try a 10 pound rifle. You would be better off to drop the gun when the ammo is gone and transition to a light machete or club. I still like the good old axe handle for close work.
specially equipped guardsman on 08 May 2011 at 11:24 am #
@ McLuvin, the Battle of Culloden just called, the Jacobites said and I quote “YU tri swingin a ruddy grey claymore aye that wall o baynet! those redcoats wey run you trough” or something like that. it was hard to understand.
there IS a reason we still carry bayonets and swords hang on walls.
McLuvin on 08 May 2011 at 3:26 pm #
Just because the army issues something doesn’t make it a good idea. The military, as an entity, makes decisions based on economics and antiquated ideas. They do many things because that’s the way they’ve always been done. Not because it is sound or useful.
wheelgunner on 08 May 2011 at 10:20 pm #
Never forget the psych of giving the man something that isn’t broken in his hand and telling him it’ll still kill something.
I think that the only thing that we can all agree on when we aren’t throwing great blazing balls of troll logic at each other is that it all comes down to the individual training we have bothered to give ourselves in the intervening period before the shtf. Survivor is a fencer, most of you are modern tactical shooters, some of us are who cares, if it kills I’m thrilled people. We seem to have a habit of not listening to the exceptions to the rules when they speak, instead arguing with there experience and life choices.
If you know what you are doing with them, nonfirearm impliments of death are just as amazing as they where when the man who was your great grandfather killed the men who might have been your great grandfather. Most just consider them a waste of time and impractical, and don’t bother to learn. I know that I prefer them to firearms, but I’m not exactly the worst shot I know either.
@viking-Iknow that bigger always does more static damage, but take it from a full time sword swinger, they are only good in specific context. It’s like trading in your best combat shotty for a single shot 2 gauge. That one shot is way bigger, but it’s not what you need for the fight at hand.
Oh, and bayonets only exist because the original guns couldn’t carry much ammo, and ha a terrible fire rate, and they issue them so they wouldn’t be so easily overrun by anybody passing by. Literally is the barely evolved form of sticking a knife down the barrel.
@survivor-It’s always nice to have another swordsman in the ranks. Welcome. Though please, I beg you, please tell me you have at least considered upgrading your epee to a real rapier?
wheelgunner on 08 May 2011 at 10:30 pm #
Also, I reaste quality over qauntity. Despite earlier endorsements I have made, Cold Steel and the like have sent me some doosies in regards to random, unexpected breakage. Experience is once again King and Conquer in the world of blades.
3-15 INF on 10 May 2011 at 8:54 am #
I actually like the bayonet- on a full size weapon like an M16A4, it could give you good reach, is easily pu on/taken off and doesn’t add hardly any weight to your kit. If your’e covering a doorway, you could effectively stab as easily as a spear and
McLuvin on 10 May 2011 at 10:18 am #
A very inefficient spear.
wheelgunner on 10 May 2011 at 3:32 pm #
The only things I like bayonets on are pre-WW! designs.
survivor811 on 10 May 2011 at 5:55 pm #
@ wheelgunner:
Dont worry, I have several real rapiers. For fencing I use the Epee. Real rapiers are good for practice because they are heavier and allow me to slow myself down when training for fencing. However wen the apocalypse happens I will be able to grab them and be ready.
There are a few problems however, such as that If the blade gets too bent it’ll break and needs alot of maintenence. granted these arent too big of a problem for me as I keep my swords in good condition and have some good quality weapons that wont break easily but they are still some things I’ll have to think about in the long run.
3-15 INF on 11 May 2011 at 8:37 am #
might be ineffecient, but im not lugging around a six foot hunk of wood
Angryvikingman on 11 May 2011 at 10:53 am #
A bayonet is a last ditch effort survival weapon, a sword, ax, spear, club, ect aren’t. Even on an M16A2 you’re not going to have the effectiveness of a 4 foot sword, or hell, a 2 foot sword for that matter. Fact is, a bayonet blade is about 8 inches give or take and thats all you have to cut or stab with. The bayonet being on the gun only gives you 2 foot of reach, so I’d take a 6 foot sharpened stick over a bayonet on a gun any day.
Docwade on 11 May 2011 at 5:44 pm #
Hah, I’d take that bayonet on a GUN, over a sharpened stick any day. Not for the bayonet, of course.
Docwade on 11 May 2011 at 6:06 pm #
The sword, in it’s many guises, is still a close proximity weapon for primarily individual, one on one combat. Let’s say you’ve just stumbled into that horse and rider scene from the walking dead with your four foot slap-chop in hand. Unless your a blind religious man trying to deliver a bible, it’s going to end badly.
Angryvikingman on 11 May 2011 at 6:35 pm #
Well of course you couldn’t take on a whole horde of zombies with a single sword, thats just ridiculous. However, when there are 10 or less that are just shamblers, I wouldn’t hesitate with a sword. Maybe 20 strokes and you’ve got them all down. All you have to do is strike and move. Like I said, slow zombies would only be so much fodder, but faster zombies would be a different story. A group larger than 3 would be too many. A sword is by no means a one on one weapon. Pitched melee combat pits you against many foes simultaneously. Just ask the SCA people and LARP kids.
As for the bayonet being attached to a GUN, well if you’re out of ammo, surrounded, then its even more worthless than a pointed stick.
Docwade on 11 May 2011 at 6:49 pm #
I am TOTALLY going to go ask the SCA people and LARP kids how real combat happens;)
McLuvin on 11 May 2011 at 6:58 pm #
I don’t think I’m gonna base my survival on some folks who play dress-up. I would definitely hesitate to go 10-1 with a sword. If it’s a small group I’ll evade as much as possible. Once again I’ll take a light club over a blade for quiet single shambler dispatch. My choice is an axe handle.
Docwade on 11 May 2011 at 7:01 pm #
So it’s ten shamblers. The downside apparently is the more you fight, the more you are going to have to fight. Their numbers seem to increase logarithmically being drawn to the sound/activity.
The sword is a pinnacle weapon for the historical time frame in which it is referenced. Better blades than what you have on hand at this moment have broken with hard use. Think there’s going to be a bunch of sword smiths popping up after the apocalypse?
Docwade on 11 May 2011 at 7:01 pm #
@McLuvin
“I do love a good piece of hickory”
Angryvikingman on 11 May 2011 at 8:19 pm #
Sword making isnt as hard as some would tend to believe. The only thing that needs to be learned is tempering. You can cast an effective sword, then temper and sharpen it. It won’t last as long as a masterwork sword, but it’ll last a long time. As for shamblers being drawn to sound, well, a gun will attract more than a sword, and based on the terrain, vegitation, trees, buildings, ect, the sound of a sword hitting a zombie is a moot point, because if they’re close enough to hear it, then they’re close enough to see you already.
McLuvin on 11 May 2011 at 8:32 pm #
I hope you have a nice solid bunker to set up your forge in. Making a sword is gonna be a loud time consuming process.
Docwade on 11 May 2011 at 8:51 pm #
Well, then you’re not talking about a sword anymore, you’re talking about a piece of metal with an edge ground on it. You, Sylvester stallone, and Benicio del Toro can hammer out a fine weapon in an afternoon.
Docwade on 11 May 2011 at 8:54 pm #
Gun loud? We’ve been pushing suppressors for a while now.
Angryvikingman on 11 May 2011 at 8:58 pm #
I forget your background, but suppressors with subsonic ammo are still louder than a sword and can be heard from a good distance. I know because I own one. As for sword making, yes, you’d still need a forge, but you can cast swords. This removes the hammering requirement. All you have to do is heat temper it and file it to a suitable edge. Its not an overly complicated process by any means. Cast swords were far more common than forgeworked swords. A cast sword can be made in a few hours, a forgework sword takes over 100 hours to make. If they were all made that way, then swords would have been a far less common sight in the ancient world, and I promise you that there weren’t hundreds of thousands of armorers and blacksmiths hammering away day and night to make swords for armies back then.
McLuvin on 11 May 2011 at 10:41 pm #
You just increased the probability of a broken sword exponentially. While it is possible to make a functional sword by casting, a cast sword is not nearly as strong as a forged one. We have all agreed that a sword is going to get bent and broken with continued use against bone. A cast sword is going to do so much quicker. Casting is not as loud as forging but it is still time consuming and requires serious tools and facilities to do right.
Angryvikingman on 11 May 2011 at 11:41 pm #
All the knives and swords that are produced today with the exception of a few are cast. They’re cut, stamped, or machined from a cast sheet and heat treated for toughness. The toughness has to do with the carbon content and tempering, not the method of manufacture. Thats why most battle ready swords are in the 200-600 range, and the hand forged ones go for waaaay higher. Some in the 1600-3000 range. Some custom sword and knife makers forge a billet to the rough size of the knife or sword then machine it out of the billet.
All you need to make a battle ready sword is a form for casting, a trough for heating thats connected to a bellows(or a gas furnace) and a trough of salt water, and a trough of oil. After you rough shape the sword you heat it to white hot and plunge it in the salt water. This makes it hard but brittle, then you heat again and dunk into the oil this time. This makes the steel more flexible but retains the hardness to keep a hard sharp edge.
A form for casting can be made from a few pieces of 2×4. Or with wet sand in a wooden box. Just be sure you soak your wood before you try casting in it because it’ll catch on fire. You do need a crucible and a furnace to cast, but you can buy them. Although I suggest you just get the flat bar stock from lowes like I do.
People seem to think that forged swords are so much stronger but they’re not. Forging is simply a process to shape the billet into a sword blank. Its then tempered as described above and polished, sharpened, and then fitted with a hilt, handle and pommel.
All you need are a few simple tools to make a sword from a bar of tempered stock. A band saw, a belt sander, a few files, and a good wet stone or other sharpening system. TA DA! You have a battle ready sword.
wheelgunner on 11 May 2011 at 11:58 pm #
What about compacting the steel and all that crap? There is a reason we started forging swords instead of casting them after the bronze age.
Angryvikingman on 12 May 2011 at 12:19 am #
The reason people forged swords is that they only had iron to work with. You have to add carbon to make steel, this is added in the forging process. Steel doesn’t compact. Its always the same density. When heated and struck it spreads out. Its called coining. The only thing that makes steel stronger is adding carbon and tempering. The addition of carbon aligns the molecular structure and this causes it to be stronger. Striking the metal only shapes it. The heating and tempering process adds carbon to the metal by causing the molecular structure of the metal to expand when heated allowing it to absorb carbon from the coal and oil.
specially equipped guardsman on 12 May 2011 at 5:45 am #
@angryvikingman If you’ve maintained that much industrial capacity, why not make Ammunition?
Angryvikingman on 12 May 2011 at 9:33 am #
I wouldn’t say that being able to cast an ingot would qualify as industrial capacity.
specially equipped guardsman on 12 May 2011 at 11:12 am #
It is at least a smithy.
To those saying a Bayonet is a weapon of last resort…well yeah! Going hand to hand with the damned should always be your last resort.
To those who say its ineffective…well No. You’re discounting them the same way the wanna be ninjas discount western martial arts. A real rifle (say anything up to the M14 or SKS) with a real bayonet in the hands of someone who knows how to use it is to be respected. I won’t say I’m in that category, its been generations since the military took real seriously. but I’ve had a lot more training at then I’ve had with a sword.
But for the sake of conversation If we have to go with swords, I always thought the cutless was cool.
what do you think about shields? Roman? buckler? Scottish targe?
McLuvin on 12 May 2011 at 12:03 pm #
@SEG- The bayonet on a real rifle(wood and steel) is definitely better than bare hands. It can be a stabbing/cutting weapon as well as a club. Downside #1 is weight. A rifle averages between 7.5-12 pounds so swinging one around for very long is going to be a heck of a workout.
Downside #2 is plastic. The vast majority of us have AR style combat rifles. These are just as heavy to swing but lose the bludgeoning capabilities. A standard buffer tube/stock assembly won’t last long as a club. So you are left with an overly heavy, cumbersome spear with a relatively short blade.
McLuvin on 12 May 2011 at 12:05 pm #
Shields are primarily used to protect yourself against enemy weapons. Assuming that zombies aren’t tool users, it would be kind of wasted against them. Sure, it has limited uses as a weapon, but not enough to warrant the weight and size.
wheelgunner on 12 May 2011 at 12:12 pm #
Sheilds? Depends on what you how you want to use it. Buckler is a 2-3lb steel fist, which is really good for an offhand weapon and in free form combat. Targe style round sheilds are neither big enough to defend you properly against a zombie, or designed to be used in the same offensive manner as a buckler. Roman “tower” or kite shaped shields will offer the right amount of protection for this type of fighting, but are big, slow, in the way, and the carrying system forn the requires it to be strapped to you in two or three different locations, which is less than optimal in this type of combat.
I’d say go with the buckler, unless you are going up against humans similarly armed, or have a defensive stucture or position in mind for a specific plan requiring a larger sheild, such as pushing down a hall.
Docwade on 12 May 2011 at 5:02 pm #
So, the zombie apocalypse is going to result in the resurgence of fiefdoms and feudalism aka some LARP kids wet dream? Angry has the look of a blacksmith.
Angryvikingman on 12 May 2011 at 5:17 pm #
No, but a lot of things will have to be made by hand, and that means forging nails, and all kinds of other stuff.
Docwade on 12 May 2011 at 5:38 pm #
I think it will be easier to just burn down dilapidated houses and sift out the nails early 1800′s style.
big bear29 on 12 May 2011 at 11:02 pm #
@Docwade
A lot of those nails will simply melt in a house fire . You would be better off scavenging them or making new ones rather than burning down an entire house to just get the dozen or so nails that will survive the fire .
McLuvin on 12 May 2011 at 11:09 pm #
I think there will be plenty of nails to be had at your local Home Depot still. I for one will be using ready made supplies as long as they can be scavenged. The average hardware store should keep a compound stocked with basic building supplies for a long time. These should be readily available as they won’t be high on anybody’s looting list during the outbreak. You may end up making weapons eventually but nails not so much.
wheelgunner on 12 May 2011 at 11:19 pm #
Not to mention that to not have to have a at least mediocre blacksmith making those nails they used to make a special press/clamp like tool so that you could make them at home with iron rods.
Either way, I fear that leaf springs will become steadily harder to come by, eh?
wheelgunner on 12 May 2011 at 11:23 pm #
@Doc-Am I getting lumped in there with all the ARMA LARP types in your slurs? If so, I truly feel offended.
Angryvikingman on 13 May 2011 at 8:01 am #
First off, ARMA is a very serious organization for the study and development of western martial arts.
LARP is a game. SCA isn’t far behind it. <~ You can poke fun at these people. Even the SCA "Heavy Fighters" are a joke. They just stand around and wack each other with sticks. They usually don't study the classical source material or learn any actual techniques.
In ARMA you have to learn basics before you can spar, except in the case that they want to sum up your natural talent before teaching you.
I doubt that maybe a few days after Z-day there would be much left at any hardware stores. People panic buying and looting would take its toll fast. As I had mentioned after the tornados hit the southeast, everything was gone. It was as if locusts had picked the store shelves clean of everything that they thought they'd need. This was in 2 days, and it was only a few towns. Can you imagine if it was the whole country? I know that as soon as I see reports of people being bitten and attacked, I'm taking my wife's van and my neighbor is gonna follow me with his truck and trailer and we're going looting. I have a plan in order and when I issue a Z911, I have 10 friends and their families that are going to come running to help. (Z911 also applies to other disasters or the like. "The Rapture", 12-21-12, tornados, floods, asteroids, ect.) We all keep supplies and predetermined amounts of ammo for WROL scenarios. Though, I have been eating my supplies lately because they're about to go out of date…, gotta rotate the stuff ya know. Lol!
BTW, I will suggest an uncommon supply source that many people don’t think about. Farmer’s CO-OP, and their supply locations. Take a drive to your local Co-Op and ask where their supplies come from. Outside nashville in Lavergne is Middle Tn co-op distribution. They have everything there in isane amounts. Silos and rail cars full of grain, fertilizer(incl ammonium nitrate), seeds, farming equipment, fuel, fuel tucks, chain link fence, panel fence, solar cells, 100-500 gallon water storage tanks, barbed wire, and tons upon tons of other hardware. The complex in Lavergne covers about 30 acres. Alas, since I moved to the country, Lavergne is about 40 minutes from here off a major section of interstate, but I do know how to get there via back roads.
McLuvin on 13 May 2011 at 10:19 am #
Unlike during a hurricane or tornado, during a zombie outbreak people aren’t going to be thinking about building materials. Gun stores and grocery stores will be hit immediately but hardware stores will be a later trend. If the outbreak happens at anywhere near the rate we postulate, most people won’t live long enough to loot nails.
We can’t exactly judge the average person’s survival instincts based on what Viking will do. We all agree that he is far from average.
big bear29 on 13 May 2011 at 11:02 am #
I would wait for a week after the outbreak hits before I would start doing any serious looting . In the first few days it would be a mad house and you would be more likely to get killed by another survivor looking for supplies than a zombie . Plus with everyone trying to run for the hills or find some other form of sanctuary the roads will get clogged up real quick . If you wait a week some of the supplies will be gone , but depending on where you are a large chunk of the zombies may have left in pursuit of the other survivors , so it could be a whole lot esier to get to those supplies you want rather than trying to fight your way through a group of a few hundred scared survivors that will want everything you have and will be desperate enough to kill for it .
specially equipped guardsman on 13 May 2011 at 12:27 pm #
What are our basic presumptions for this issue? It seems some people think they will be facing the hoard alone with just their sword. How did we come to that point?
The ammo is gone or is so rare now that we hold it in reserve for high threats. ok but why are we alone? It will be quite some time before we shot out our ammo stockpiles. If we haven’t joined together in groups for mutual support by then you might as fall on that sword.
And if we’ve banned together and at least have a decent work shop we can do better than swinging a sword. The lone warrior is fine romantic notion, but I’m all about combat multipliers.
Standoff distance.
They have to get hands on us to hurt us so don’t let them get that close. The ammos gone? fine let’s make crossbow bolts or a slingshot, I’m sure between us we could whip up a stock mounted compound slingshot that would pierce a skull at 50 feet. They are slow to reload, a mob might close the distance before we take them all out.
spears/pike. I’m thinking of a design, 6 to 8 foot pole with a 6 inch narrow spike. slam that right through the nasal cavity into the brain, withdrawal, repeat as necessary. Add a cross bar at the base of the spike and now you have the option of driving into its chest holding it in place while your partner administers the coup de grace.
Mutual support and protection.
There are still too many and we can’t fall back to a prepared position?
Shield wall/square. Now you can whip out your sword. but I’m thinking a traditional sword is not the most efficient method of dispatching the damned. We’re fighting in formation remember, no room to swing. we’ll need to thrust. We could go with short swords but I think what we really want here is something like a punch dagger, with a spike and hand guard. punch them in the nose, repeat.
Of course not everyone can be equipped with a crossbow, a pike, and a heavy shield, we’ll need to mix and match the force to fit our needs, say 50% heavy infantry intended to fight in formation. 30% pikes that can either form a pike wall or form up behind the shield men, 20% slingers.
Angryvikingman on 13 May 2011 at 1:15 pm #
First off, If at all possible, I’d rather run than fight the zombies. There are times however when you will need to take the fight to the enemy. Guns are great for that and they would be my primary first fight weapon, but when even the use of a silencer will draw too much attention or I’m out of ammo and I have no choice but to fight, then I’d definately want to have a blade over 2 feet to attack with. (Silencers only cut the decibels of a gunshot from 160+ to about 120-140 range. There is still a pop, but its dissapated and harder to tell directionally where it came from. So it will definately still be heard.)
I never said anything about being alone other than talking about myself, and I said “IF” I was alone I’d only take on a limited group size depending on the type of zombies. I had also mentioned fighting in groups, which does enhance the odds of survival. Strategy plays a key part in group combat, and you can fight in relatively close concert with any kind of sword except a greatsword or claymore. I think that going the way of the romans would be best for group fighting. Shield wall and short stabbing/chopping swords like the gladius or falcata. Now, modernization would play a large part in lightening the shields and armor. You can make a Roman style shield out of Lexan that would be thinner, lighter, and see through. Depending on the thickness, lexan is also bullet proof. There are also plenty of high impact plastics that can be heat formed and used as armor. Vaccuforming can be accomplished with as little as a form you carved from clay or some other non-melting medium, some plywood, and a house hold vacuum. Hell, Kydex would be great for plastic armor, easily formable/reformable, light, very stiff, rugged, paintable, and can be bought/found in large sheets. Sorry to say, nothings going to make the sword lighter though.
I don’t know about pikes, but a shield wall or testugo might work. Have a couple guys up top stabbing and chopping faces while the others hold back the zombies. However, it would only work with a limited number of zombies. You’d never be able to withstand the pressure of several hundred pressing in on you. If you had 20 people, you could perhaps attack a group as large as 50 and win, but any more than that and you’re likely to collapse as a unit and all die. Additionally, you would have to train for months together to fight as a cohesive unit before you even attempted stepping onto the field with the enemy.
CompShooter on 13 May 2011 at 8:43 pm #
For me with all being said I still come back to a machete and a 6 ft pike improvised from a piece of .500 – .625 CRS round stock scavenged from a work shop, steel company or factory. To be used to sweep the legs out from under the clumsy shamblers (assuming they are for this argument) and help become a obstacle for others directly behind or thrust the sternum for the same effect while still on the move, I believe that being able to stay on the move past them and keep them away has its own merits by being able to keep them away without stopping to engage, but I would have to have a firearm on me for the living threats at least or if surrounded by the dead. I agree, I would rather run or stay out of sight than risk fighting close quarters and even would recon by bringing optics to search a town before entering to size up the population, dead and living. Now if we are talking some years or decades down the road where we have to revert back to the 13th century because of dwindling ammo supplies and no replacement parts etc. I do not believe that firearms will completely disappear. I would not trust going anyware 20 years + later thinking that everyone will be using swords. Firearms might go back to matchlocks (I say matchlocks since they dont take a percussion cap, just a smoldering treated length of rope) using whatever lead can still be scavenged like wheel weights or from dead batteries or if after that dries up, then a blunderbuss filled with broken glass,rocks or other shrapnel but there will be guns, make no mistake. If things get that primitive I do believe that black smithing would make a come back of sorts (former metal skilled trades etc) and rudimentary firearms will be there until such a time that there are repatriated areas or no more undead and living threats. Therfore have the toe hold to start society / industry over again.
survivor811 on 18 May 2011 at 3:01 pm #
I’m feeling that martial arts wouldn’t be all that effective on zombies. Most are designed to incapacitate with pain, which zombies don’t feel.
not nessecarily ture. Many martial arts use pain as a weapon itself however Most have techniques that involve killing in the most efficient and quickest way possible. For example, in kempo karate there is an easy way to break the neck, simply:
A) grab hair or eye sockets with your arm behind the head
B) Pull the head back
C) chop the bridge of the nose snapping their vertibre.
QAZZY on 18 May 2011 at 4:42 pm #
There are easier ways to break necks. I’ll share one:
1) Put your left hand in a ‘V’ with your thumb at a right angle.
2) Place your hand on their chin, with your thumb and pointer fingers in contact with the corners of their mouth.
3) ‘Cup’ your right hand and place it on the right side of the top their head.
4) Twist clockwise.
5) Never, my any means, use this on a person.
In the event of Z-Day, a bayonet by far is the best weapon. For these reasons:
1) There’s a lot of material on how to use one. Plus, the Marines teach you how to use it.
2) Attaches to your rifle (hopefully longer barrel) for a spear, which is more effective than a sword. Thrusting is far more efficient, and you only need 8 inches to get the job done. I’ve done it with less. When traveling, you don’t want to carry a lot of gear. This saves you a good 5 pounds over a sword.
3) Bayonets are easier to find than swords. In the event of Z-Day, ordering a handcrafted German longsword isn’t going to be easy. Your local military surplus shop has bayonets.
4) Easier to maintain. You have to constantly keep your long edge sharpened with a sword. With unsharpened edges, you can still use your bayonet. An expensive sword demands pampering.
McLuvin on 18 May 2011 at 7:56 pm #
@Qazzy- I have no doubt that you get by with less than 8 inches, but that doesn’t make up for the shortcomings of the bayonet.
Angryvikingman on 18 May 2011 at 8:06 pm #
@Qazzy
LOL, Love the ole “Silence the Sentry” neck snap from the marine hand to hand combat handbook.
5lbs over a sword? Nah, a sword only weighs about 3 lbs. Which is about the same as a fullsize loaded handgun and 2 loaded mags. Slung properly, a sword wont be nearly the hassle to keep out of the way as a gun.
Ronin666 on 18 May 2011 at 8:46 pm #
OK, I don’t know where you got the idea that most swords are cast. Casting does not give a good grain structure and also leaves it self wide open for inclusions,ie air pockets .Bronze swords were cast but steel swords have to be forged. Kershaw have only recently experimented with powdered steel vacuum casting with some success in knives.
There are 2 ways to make a sword these days, forging or stock removal, a good deal of cheaper swords are done via stock removal, that is you start with a bar of steel and remove anything that doesn’t look like a sword with grinder or CNC machine. I can tell you for a fact that most Cold Steel,Dynasty and Hanwei swords are forged, yes they use power hammers but they are forged.
As someone else said there is a big difference between a piece of steel with an edge on it and a sword. Balance,harmonics,geometry and the hardening and tempering process make a huge difference to the final product both in its use and longevity.
Also on the subject of European martial arts,before fencing the Europeans had a defined sword based martial art that was written down and passed on, just as the Japanese and Chinese did and it was meant for use in battle. The knights didn’t just run about hacking and slashing at random, they studied the sword for years.
“I promise you that there weren’t hundreds of thousands of armorers and blacksmiths hammering away day and night to make swords for armies back then.” Actually yes there were,maybe not hundred of thousands but remember the population was a lot smaller then, also enemies swords were collected from battle fields so a sword would see many owners in it’s life time and be re-forged/repaired many times. The swords we tend to see these days in museums survived because they were something special, those dug from graves or battle feilds show that they were nowhere near as well made as those of the wealthy. The Japanese called these “bundle swords” cheap swords churned out for the mass armies, in WW2 they called them Gunto. The same applied in Europe, the common foot soldier IF he was lucky enough to get a sword got a hastily forged piece that was made to be disposable, just like he was.
Angryvikingman on 18 May 2011 at 10:39 pm #
Yeah, the “stock” for stock removal is cast. Steel sheets are rolled off a big roller, and go through a series of rollers until its the desired thickness. This can be done hot or cold. Hot being over 1700 degrees. It comes out of a big die, which is essentially casting, this is why it has scaling on the exterior unless it was pickled and oiled. This is what is used for stock removal. Like I said, they just punch out the knife and sword blanks and then finish them out by grinding and polishing.
The “Forging” that most companies do today is pretty much superheat a bar of steel with electricity and hit it with a 20 ton power hammer like twice in a die, and then throw the left over into a bin to be melted back down, and then let the sword blank cool , then temper it just like the stamped ones, and then grind and polish it. Its called Drop Forging.
I would be interested in seeing how two swords made each way stand up to stress tests.
I did mention its all about the way its tempered and treated as to how strong it is.
McLuvin on 18 May 2011 at 11:31 pm #
I don’t think what you described is considered casting. The rolling process would be closer to forging by definition.
Casting involves pouring liquid metal into a mold of the desired shape.
Clifford "Ozzie" Nicolen on 19 May 2011 at 11:10 am #
You know something’s going down when the CDC tells you to be afraid of zombies. I’ve never really prepared for a 100% ZOMBIE attack, I’ve just made Survival Packs that are universal to each kind of apocalypse.
Be on the lookout for any more news like that!
Docwade on 19 May 2011 at 12:15 pm #
This all kind of reminds me of when I was in elementary school and we would fight with our broom stick swords. A sword will not trump a good wrecking bar in this situation. Your sword is going to chip and break, either because of it’s construction, what you are trying to do with it, or your skill with it. It can only be used for one thing and for the investment in space and weight, the wrecking bar still wins.
CompShooter on 19 May 2011 at 5:33 pm #
Well, being a machinist if I make splitter knives for some of our machines that are too old to get parts for the MINIMUM I have used is 1045 carbon steel. I have also used 1065 (for those who may not know “10″ denotes that it is just plain carbon steel and “45″ is the % of carbon content denoted as .45%) I really like S7 for a whole range of things such as punches, chisels, blanking dies, forming dies, shears, high hardness plastic molds, and zinc die casting dies etc. Back in the day we all grew up so to speak on O-1, O-2 (oil hard) and A-1, A-2 (air hard) tool steels but for me S7 pretty much does it all and including specialized plainer knives.
QAZZY on 20 May 2011 at 4:04 pm #
I’m not understanding the negativity of the bayonet. You’re carrying less weight, and it’s defensive, which is important, since you’re trying to survive and avoid zombies, not go out and kill them all. I also feel a well-made sword would snap before a similarly-made knife (more length, easier to snap). People are also overlooking that KNIVES ARE EASIER TO FIND THAN SWORDS.
You people just aren’t explaining to me the shortcomings of a bayonet. A fencer knows it’s easy enough (well its pretty hard, because your opponent can parry, but a zombie can’t parry) to hit someone in the head, and the way you hold a bayonet gives you plenty of power.
Angryvikingman on 20 May 2011 at 4:22 pm #
Because, the rigidity of a few pieces of plastic and aluminum aren’t going to hold up to a bunch of strikes. You’re going to bend the barrel if you swing it like a spear from the end and make contact with a zombie. You just can’t employ it in the proper manner to make it as effective as a bowie or machete. Thats all I’m saying. Knives are easier to find than swords, buuuuuut if you buy one before hand, then you’ll have one when you need it. Not to mention walmart, army surplus stores, camping stores, and home improvement stores all sell machetes. Much better than a bayonet.
McLuvin on 20 May 2011 at 4:34 pm #
Exactly, the blade isn’t the weak link. You are putting a short blade on the end of a heavy, cumbersome “spear shaft”. A rifle weighs 7.5-12 pounds depending on accessories. That is a hell of a lot of weight to swing/stab/thrust with. You will be exhausted in a few minutes. You mentioned the bash/slash technique before. That isn’t going to work well with a modern plastic and aluminum rifle. The stock will shatter, buffer tube will break off, and the barrel will likely bend. A vintage rifle like an M1 or M1A will fare better as a club but still weigh a ton. As I have said, if you run out of ammo you would be better off to drop the rifle and transition to something else. An axe handle on your back or a couple spring loaded batons would be good choices for weight, safety, and ease of use.
I have made these points repeatedly. Hopefully this time you pay attention.
survivor811 on 20 May 2011 at 7:24 pm #
A quote from the CDC article-
The rise of zombies in pop culture has given credence to the idea that a zombie apocalypse could happen. In such a scenario zombies would take over entire countries, roaming city streets eating anything living that got in their way. The proliferation of this idea has led many people to wonder “How do I prepare for a zombie apocalypse?”
Well, we’re here to answer that question for you, and hopefully share a few tips about preparing for real emergencies too!
*note: read the last line, they dont expect it to happen and think it’s fake. Ha can’t wait to prove them wrong.
QAZZY on 20 May 2011 at 8:50 pm #
If you use the bayonet as intended (and taught), you don’t run the risk of breakage. Quite a lot of forethought went into MCMAP, adapting it from LINE (because apparently, LINE was only good for killing people), so I think they have accounted for the ‘weak link’. Although a shovel seems like a great multipurpose tool. A good shovel with sharpened sides could probably make a great axe and chew through Master Locks (need to test).
Where can I get swords? I don’t trust Cold Steel, since I’ve heard the quality is inconsistent and they use the best products for their torture tests. I’ve also heard most ‘battle-ready’ swords really aren’t. But I’ve heard Cold Steel’s machetes are great. So what advantages donswords provide over machetes?
Angryvikingman on 20 May 2011 at 11:06 pm #
Museum replicas makes forged swords, CAS Hanwei, and a few others. Just google and do your own research. As for swords vs machetes, swords have more mass making cuts easier, are longer so when swung the tip moves exponentially faster, and have a longer handle with hilt and pommel that can be quite deadly in and of themselves. Though, Cold steel makes some new 2 handed machetes, and has a new gladius machete, and since the gladius was the sword of the roman legion, you know it’ll kick some serious ass. On the gladius or other machetes with a blade length of less than 3 feet, I suggest the use of at least a small shield, or dual wield. Oh, and on anything less than 2 feet, make sure you have a lanyard to put around your wrist.
QAZZY on 21 May 2011 at 7:08 am #
@specially equipped guardian
Zombie Tools are crap (or so I’ve heard), stick to Cold Steel. Great knives.
@Angryvikingman
Damn, all those swords are out of my budget* (the Bushmaster was too, but it was a gift). I saw some of those Cold Steel spears. Know anything on that? I think I’ll get a Kukri Magnum machete and an Assegai spear.
*government job, first year, so haven’t saved up much. After those years in the military, I’m not exactly rich, just proud to serve my country.
Angryvikingman on 21 May 2011 at 7:22 am #
@QAZZY
Don’t buy direct from their retail sites. Check budk.com and other places and you can get them sometimes hundreds of dollars cheaper. I NEVER buy from the retail site unless no one else is selling them.
I’ve never had any experience with the CS spears, but I like the Pilum and Boar Spear.
BTW no one gets rich working for the military, but thanks for your service.
Angryvikingman on 21 May 2011 at 8:31 am #
The Machetes are great. I own a pair of them. As far as the traditional kukris, I don’t like the handles, and I never heard that the notches were to keep blood off your hand, but to catch a blade in knife to knife combat.
Decide what you like for yourself, and buy that. We really are only here to make suggestions, and we can only speak about what we have experience with.
Docwade on 21 May 2011 at 11:15 am #
I prefer the meaning of the notches to represent the trident of Shiva.
wheelgunner on 21 May 2011 at 12:44 pm #
Cold steel spears are crap. THat centrasl ridge is aactually a depression. It may help you bleed out a boar, but it’s way less than idea for a fighting head. Steel quality didn’t impress me much. The handle on mine was unfinished, and came BENT. I woudn’t do it.
http://www.kultofathena.com If you can find it, they usually sell what they carry at a hundred plus less than the companies home site.
QAZZY on 21 May 2011 at 3:34 pm #
@Angryvikingman
Thanks, I appreciate that. I did 4 years active duty, now I got a gov’t job (I’d tell you, but then I’d have to kill you ;) ). I could be recalled at any time. The gov’t job is much better paying.
No one does get rich, but I hear SEALs start out with a 60k salary, tax-free if they’re overseas.
@wheelgunner
I hear the quality from Cold Steel is pretty inconsistent. I guess I’ll just order one from Amazon. I’ll just avoid the boar spear.
Angryvikingman on 21 May 2011 at 8:46 pm #
Ick, ordering a knife off of amazon? Blaspheme.
QAZZY on 21 May 2011 at 9:44 pm #
You’re saying that as if products from Amazon are inferior. They’re the same. It saves me so much time and momey shopping (unless the ladies really insist, then it’s retail). I would seriously have sex with Amazon.com if I could. I love it.
Angryvikingman on 22 May 2011 at 12:06 am #
I don’t mind looking for the best prices, and a lot of times I can beat prices on amazon, if not by much. You can also find discount codes online for a lot of sites that will give you 10% off or free shipping.
As for the CS boar spear… Yeah, I hate that the head doesn’t completely cover the shaft like it should. You could always take the heads of of 2 and weld them together and put a new edge on them.
QAZZY on 22 May 2011 at 7:20 am #
Where do you order your various sharp objects then?
Just out of curiosity, who here is current or former military?
Angryvikingman on 22 May 2011 at 9:12 am #
I usually use budk and use the aforementioned coupon codes to get free shipping and ect. As soon as they start stocking the gladius machetes, I’m gonna order 4, and 4 gladius training swords. Then I’m going to teach myself and my wife single and dual handed roman combat styles assuming I can find a decent training manual. I’m already training her in longsword. I may have to get 2 sets of escrima sticks so I can up her eye hand coordination and hone her reflexes. I’m sure I’m a little rusty as well.
There are a few of them on here, but most of them haven’t posted in some time. Most of them use their infantry divisions/batallion as their names.
3ID
3-15INF
and so on. There are a few others, but names slip my recollection at this point.
Angryvikingman on 22 May 2011 at 11:57 am #
Of course it was a joke. Honk Kong is in China.
Checked out that bag, its actually not bad.
Angryvikingman on 23 May 2011 at 8:09 pm #
All I used was a pair of 20lb dumbells and did the circuit and I even cheated a little and it was hard as hell. I never needed to lift, I’ve always been naturally strong. When I was in football in highschool I could out lift 90% of the guys, well except a few of them on the bench and military press and I never really worked out. I like swimming, and the occasional run. Try that circuit once and see what you think. Just do it with 5 or 10lb. I couldn’t find my 10lbs so I did it with 20s and I suffered for it. Man my legs feel like jello.
specially equipped guardsman on 24 May 2011 at 3:01 am #
Ok that looks like a great workout, but I was very disappointed to discover it was not geared towards improving my chances of surviving Gladiatorial Combat.
Angryvikingman on 24 May 2011 at 8:22 am #
Considering I put on a LOT of weight when my wife was pregnant, and haven’t gone to the gym in over a year, I’m super out of shape. I was dying after 3 stations on that, I cheated a little bit on all the push up parts, and did Puss ups. (girl push ups) I think I did 3 before I had to cheat. As I said, a year+ of basically sitting on my ass at work and at home took its toll. My left shoulder is a little sore, but thats about it.
Good luck in your events! You’re gonna need it with the elevation changes on that mountain. Hope you spend at least a week there getting acclimated before hand.
tom on 24 May 2011 at 12:07 pm #
Dr. Khan is risking his reputation. He must have a good reason
Angryvikingman on 24 May 2011 at 1:00 pm #
Dr. Khan? wtf?
McLuvin on 24 May 2011 at 2:25 pm #
I’m also a little confused. Who is Dr. Khan?
I think it’s time for a new article. You had to have another one in mind when you wrote this one.
QAZZY on 24 May 2011 at 2:50 pm #
@Angryvikingman
I this what marriage does to you? Note to self: marry a marathon runner or triathlete.
@Mcluvin
Agreed. We need one on transportation and long-term plans. Also: combat without weapons.
Angryvikingman on 24 May 2011 at 3:04 pm #
@ QAZZY
Short answer… Yes, in a lot of cases.
I’ll be posting another article in a day or so I have a lot of them about finished, but I try and research things before I write so that I don’t have someone come on here and tell me that I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about.
Look for more on alternate energy and other weapons.
Also, I don’t like to release a lot in a short period of time because if I do, then no one will comment on them except once or twice. I know its been almost a month, but seriously, I’m the only person writing right now out of 3 people, so cut me some slack. ;)
QAZZY on 25 May 2011 at 5:22 am #
3 people? Hmm…. you have some lazy friends. Your logic involving article releases is pretty good.
Marriage seems like a bullet that I can’t dodge forever. I love independence.
big bear29 on 28 May 2011 at 4:29 pm #
@QAZZY
“Combat without weapons”
BLASPHEMY , KILL THE HERETIC . HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST SUCH A THING , OFF WITH HIS HEAD . KEEL HUAL HIM , MAKE HIM WALK THE PLANK .
Seriously though , there is no reason that anyone should be fighting the undead bare handed . It will be easier to find a weapon or something that can be used as a weapon than something to fight against . Just about anything in the world can be used as a weapon if you think about it . Crowbars , claw hammers , pipe wrenches , pruning sheers , even a tube sock filled with rocks can be used as an improvised weapon . The risk of infection or death is simply to high in hand to hand combat with the undead .
wheelgunner on 28 May 2011 at 4:55 pm #
Yeah, we have an in place strategy for situations like that. It’s called running at least until you can hide or arm yourself.
QAZZY on 29 May 2011 at 5:37 pm #
@big bear29
This is more a ‘just in case’-type thing.
What if your weapon broke, your handgun is out of ammo, your rifle is back at your shelter and you left your knife embedded in a zombie’s head? What if you’re corned in an alleyway at night, when it’s too dark to find a weapon on a floor?
Of course this is a pretty specific situation, and you could say, “I will remember to carry a weapon at all times”, or something along those lines, but you always prepared for the worst. That’s why they teach unarmed combat in the armed forces. Just in case.
I’m not saying you should go out and fight zombies unarmed. If you did tell me you’re going to do that, I would hand you a gun with one bullet and tell you to shoot yourself.
A topic within combat without firearms I feel we haven’t touched is easy-to-access/improvised weapons. Yes, a sword is the most effective, but chances are pretty good you won’t be able to access it when the outbreak begins. A crowbar is a good choice, and if you’re in the car, you should have a knife or tire iron. A tube sock filled with wet sand, birdshot, or as you mentioned, gravel is effective, and I’ve heard blackjacks have given people aneurysms.
Happy Memorial Day tomorrow. Pay your respects. I’m visiting the Marine Corps memorial and of course, having a kick-ass barbecue.
wheelgunner on 30 May 2011 at 1:34 pm #
@Qazzy-Seriously, your screwed man. Men fight with weapons because they are effective, and you aren’t. And the problem with improvised weapons is the fact that they aren’t weapons, just something that you are using like one. Even your basic wood axe and hatchet fall into that category.
One of the things I’m about to look into is the Aztec style sling and bola. They use clay balls instead of stone, which we have too much and not enough of in my area. I’ve seen tests done against reproduction spanish armor, and it’s insane how much damage one of those things can done. Think fist sized bricks thrown faster than a major league baseball pitcher can throw them hitting someone in the face. Plus they are quite, and can be used to hunt with.
For the sake of arguement, you could make a modernized “manriki” chain-club out of a two foot length of light chain and a pair of locks. Works great if you have time and room to swing it, and the style takes maybe ten minutes to get figured out.
McLuvin on 30 May 2011 at 4:32 pm #
All the weapons you just mentioned are terrible ideas. They take a ton of practice to get good with and even then they have mediocre accuracy and range. You are as likely to hurt yourself with a weighted chain as the enemy. Most of us would be much better served with a simple club.
wheelgunner on 30 May 2011 at 5:51 pm #
Better range with a sling than a sword. To each his own.
big bear29 on 30 May 2011 at 9:12 pm #
@wheelgunner
You have a far greater chance to miss with a sling as well . Also the range for such weapons is pathetic and the odds of hitting the zombies head are slim to none . There are some people that practice with those weapons on a regular basis and even then they still aren’t that accurate .
Theres a reason you will hear of large formations of archers in past battles and not slingers . Also “fist” sized projectiles were not used with slings , they were usually no bigger than a chicken egg . The larger the projectile the harder it will be for you to launch it accurately .
wheelgunner on 30 May 2011 at 10:00 pm #
The Keltoi, Romans, a whole slough of Middle Eastern cultures used to use them, expecially in a defensive context. It is all a matter of what you are training for, how hard, how often, and being able to accept those misses in due course. I’m not trading in my rifle, I’m looking for something I can make to give me an edge when my rifle’s gone, broken, out of ammo, or simply to cumbersome for me to carry with me through whatever lies before me. This is the same arguement yall use against bows, or anything that is not a combat rifle of some sort. Pretty much the entire thread.
I’ve seen the fist sized ones used from about thirty yards, hit a skull sized target 5 outta 5 shots, and seen the damage it inflicted. Difference in a shotgun slug and a .338 lapua. The standard I can make off the Roman model is a long ovoid cast of lead. Easy to replicate in clay as well. Also, the specifics on the accuracy are dependant on the length of the sling, the specific sling motion you use, as well as the afforementioned ammunition.
Would you have prefered the atlatl? Or a javelin? Throwing ax? Or the bow and arrow? Mine broke the other day so thats out of the question for the near future. I know that I was hitting head sized targets at twenty five yards in the days shortly before that happened. Crossbows aren’t that bad, but a lot goes into making one, and you have to baby composites if you intend for them to last. Throwing your knives will mostly just get you short on knives. Admittedly, I seem to be personally incable of using a slingshot. Nearly took off my thumb last time I used one. Blowguns rely mostly on poison, so thats a no-go.
And, honestly, if you are not training with or for it, why bother to discuss the issue? How good where you the first time you picked up a firearm? Or your prefered melee tool, or other assorted sidearm? The reason why we are even having to have the arguement is because guns are simpler to use, which is why the rest fell by the way. I know what I’m getting into, but how can you know something without having tried it yourself? I have the time, and the opportunity. Why not?
@Mcluvin-A manriki is more or less just a flail without a handle, and I was merely intending to give Qazzy an upgrade on his sock of nickles in the same usage category. Same as a bola, which you can also use to trip with.
QAZZY 1-9th on 31 May 2011 at 5:34 am #
@wheelgunner
I don’t think you’re getting it. I’m using these improvised weapons as examples of what you could do if you don’t have a weapon. They’re no less stupid that you using a sling when your rifle breaks. In my defense, I’ve been hit with a tube sock full of sand, and I do not anticipate being hit with a sock full of nickels.
A sling is a hell of a lot less efficient than a rifle (start practicing), as is a sock of birdshot compared to a mace. But not everyone has access to expensive and rare true battle-ready weapons. A crowbar is at as effective as your sling, and the hit probability is higher. We can’t all afford a manriki, or have enough training to swing around a weighted chain. I’ve seen it in person, even accidentally, a crowbar can do a s***ton of damage. Along with a machete, the crowbar is a very effective tool and weapon. You can file both ends to make them sharp, and swinging a 1.5 pound sharpened bar of metal is bound to be pretty effective. Also useful for breaking into buildings.
A bola, however, I can use. Two rocks and some rope. Easy.
Angryvikingman on 31 May 2011 at 3:05 pm #
I’d use a bow before a sling because I know I can hit a 3 gallon bag at 75 yards or more.
wheelgunner on 31 May 2011 at 3:11 pm #
Mine broke. And it takes a lot more gear for a bow than it does for a sling.
QAZZY 1-9th on 31 May 2011 at 4:35 pm #
I would like to point out, while not too much training is needed to hit a human-sized target with a sling, hitting an undead, moving (albeit slowly) target FATALLY in the head requires a lot of training.
I agree with Angryvikingman, a bow is easier to use, more accurate and gives you a much more guaranteed kill. A crossbow is the ultimate in non-firearm ranged weapons (no such thing as man-portable railguns… yet). If you can fire a rifle, you can fire a crossbow easily, and with brief experimentation, you can account for trajectory. You can improvise a bow or crossbow and their bolts or arrows with ease (although not as easily as a sling), and can make or buy a stone bow, which shoots stones, bullets or pellets.
So while you shouldn’t ignore the sling (will be useful in the long run, with practice), the bow is a much more effective weapon. In a high stress situation, aiming a bow at a zombie’s head would be difficult, but at least some bows have sights. Swinging around a rock above your head, trying to hit a moving target in the head? I’d imagine nearly impossible.
wheelgunner on 31 May 2011 at 11:08 pm #
One of the things about the sling is that you can use it like a flail in a pinch. No arguements that with the proper supplies that a bow is the better tool for the job though. The question then is, what type of arrow heads are the most ideal? And, taking care of one of those things isn’t the easiest thing in the world either.
I suppose if you wanted to be pretty sure you killed whatever you hit in the first strike a tetsubo whould at least make you feel like a man while doing it. Opinion?
Angryvikingman on 31 May 2011 at 11:32 pm #
A big ass studded club? Yeah, thats a good way to kill zombies. Its got reach if you get one of the longer ones. I gotta say though, the size and length must make it insanely heavy.
QAZZY 1-9th on 01 Jun 2011 at 5:29 am #
When using a sling as a flail, one, it can hit you, two, the projectile, more than oven enough, falls out. I have experienced both. The Zombie Survival Guide also recommends against slings.
In terms of bludgeons, the crowbar seems to be the best. Not too heavy, but with enough weight to do some serious damage. Solid pieces of metal are reliable, and two sharpened ends add versatility as a weapon or a tool.
I don’t think all these exotic (a sword is relatively exotic) weapons are unobtainable to people, and you are all overlooking the simple tools that we own already. If you sharpen the end of a good, solid shovel, and use a forceful shove at the bridge of the nose of a zombie, it would be fatal. A crowbar swing could be as effective of that of a war hammer, and unlike a mankiri, if you miss, you don’t run the risk of getting hurt. A good quality sword is nearly impossible to come by, considering they’re very hard to find, and when they’re found, there is a prohibitive cost. A machete can decapitate a zombie, is lighter, and can serve as a tool. When you’re running from zombies, the last thing you want is weight, so a machete and a crowbar provide two very lethal weapons, and two very versatile tools, while weighing less than a sword, combined.
QAZZY 1-9th on 01 Jun 2011 at 5:38 am #
@wheelgunner
Crossbow maintenance isn’t very difficult, not as easy as a maintenance-free sling, but not as hard as a rifle, either. T
The best projectile would be a traditional bolt, having a smaller tip, and being smaller and heavier. Most crossbows today fire shorter arrows, so a good bodkin, target or field arrow would provide best penetration for the price. Broadheads are designed to bleed out an animal, something unneeded here. Although, a mechanical broadhead opens its blades inside the target, but maintain an aerodynamic, sharper profile in flight (and penetration). Overall for penetrated a skull, you want something with a minimum diameter, maximum weight, and a smaller, sharper point.
wheelgunner on 01 Jun 2011 at 11:40 am #
@viking-Yeah. A lot of the originals were made of iron and lead. Just trying to think of something we haven’t discussed yet. It was made to squish horses and men in armor. Figured it would do the job.
@Qazzy-I don’t mean to be forgetting all those “tools that we all have”, I just own way more melee tools than basic mainantence ones. Not to dis the crowbar or the matchete more than I have to, they are not meant to do those things with, honestly, so I tend to gravitate toward things that are. They can be pressed into service, and maybe even do the job, but they will not do it as dependably or well as a tool designed for it. Shovels aren’t bad either, but by comparison, if one where to hit something in the head with a hand ax, or a shovel, which one would you prefer? And in this day of internet and capitalism, if you look hard enough you can find something you like at a price you may can afford. Or make.
I know I for one have no sympathy for a general populace that can’t be bothered to find a way to protect kith and kin. Expecially when it’s so easy to take the basic steps to do it.
Also, in melee range of a zed, you probably won’t be coming back from that miss.
Angryvikingman on 01 Jun 2011 at 12:36 pm #
@wheelgunner
How are you gonna miss something coming right for you with no reguard for its own personal safety? (With a melee weapon, not a sling)Hell, if they shuffle, then you have time to line up the shot well in advance one on one. En mass, that’d be a tad different.
survivor811 on 01 Jun 2011 at 3:09 pm #
Also pointing out about the crossbow that newer crossbows (without too much attachments) though they can be a good weapon, arent reccomended. A typical composite bow can fire off maybe 5-10 arrows a minute in an ordinary situation (not regarding the fact that there is a zombie coming towards you) a crossbow can get off maybe 4-7 shots a minute with a trained person operating it. again this doesnt include the stress factor of a zombie attack.
As for the sling being used as a weapon. dont discredit it immediatly, it is small and light enough to fit in a pocket or a backpack with little trouble. also for ammo you can find rocks or peices of concrete (depending on were you live, I live in a large city with alot of crumbling roads so finding ammo wouldnt be a problem) if I needed to use one I would. as for using it as a flail, if you are worried about hitting yourself with it simply dont use it but I cant see this happening unless you are completely incompetant with similar chain weapons, hell, you can hit yourself with a club to if your careless.
wheelgunner on 01 Jun 2011 at 3:15 pm #
Don’t look at me! McLuvin and Qazzy are the ones talking about missing and hurting yourself. My comment was just a rebutal. I have never had a problem being that incompetant with them.
wheelgunner on 01 Jun 2011 at 3:36 pm #
I do not like crossbows though. All they are is a regular bow with a lot more that could go wrong.
QAZZY 1-9th on 01 Jun 2011 at 4:22 pm #
I am quite proficient with a crossbow, and not much more can go wrong with a solid recurve crossbow. As for the sling, I’m practicing now, because when we’re out of ammo, and there’s no time to fashion a new bow, you can whip out a sling and finish the zombie. But then again, you can easily make your own bow and arrow.
With melee weapons, I think a crowbar is a much more solid weapon than a machete, and at least as good as any purpose-built mace or bludgeon. I also tend to lean towards defensive weapons, like a spear or a shovel (as a Shaolin spade). I’m not out to kill them all, just stay alive. A sword is leaning towards the offensive. The Cold Steel Bushman has a hollow handle for mounting on poles as a spear.
wheelgunner on 01 Jun 2011 at 5:07 pm #
At least duct tape the grip for me would you? Make me feel better about you using a make-shift mace. Cold Steel bushman also bends easily when jabbed into anything hard, and lacks the weight and blade length to use as a glaive. Used to have one. I’ll take something meant to withstand contacting steel over something meant to cut up a squirrel any day.
QAZZY 1-9th on 02 Jun 2011 at 5:42 am #
I already put grip tape on my crowbars. Are there any third-party Bushman torture tests?
wheelgunner on 02 Jun 2011 at 10:20 am #
I haven’t the foggiest.
@viking-Do you own a Cold Steel hand and a half sword?
Angryvikingman on 02 Jun 2011 at 10:47 am #
I’d say check youtube. There’s a channel that does knife torture tests and they keep beating them until they break. I’ll look it up and repost it. As for me owning a cold steel sword, no, I don’t, YET. At the very latest I will be getting one by february. I really wanted to get a great sword and have the blade altered so the whole thing would be a cutting weapon and not have those big spikes hanging off the sides.
QAZZY 1-9th on 02 Jun 2011 at 3:12 pm #
I’m buying one. That stood up to some serious damage, and are pretty cheap too. I’m using as a spear and seeing if it’s tough enough.
survivor811 on 04 Jun 2011 at 4:19 pm #
Hmm… interesting, I’ll have to buy one of those and do some stress testing to find out for myself. I’m not 100% sure I would want to trust that video (i am usually skeptical about many things like this on the internet).
That being said I have an old hunting knife (not sure what brand or where I got it) that I had since I was a kid, It is probably what I would take with me because it is still in good shape after a long time and I take good care of it. It is so sharp that I can cut partway through a sheet of paper while it is falling, however I make sure it isnt so sharp that it’ll split if I actually need to cut anything with it.
QAZZY 1-9th on 05 Jun 2011 at 7:45 pm #
I got my Bushman, and I’ve been beating it up, and its been holding up well. I need a polymer broomstick for a spear.
My other favorite knives are a small Cold Steel utility knife, my issued Ontario Knives OKC3S bayonet, my personal KA-BAR (the black one, not the traditional leather handle one) and an M9 bayonet, which includes a wire cutter. I also recently got the Kukri Magnum machete, and it works very well.
I have also considered an Assegai spear, since if you can use a bayonet well, a spear would be more effective (M16s, AR-15s and M4s contain a lot of plastic, not the most durable material. Broomsticks are also easier to replace than barrels and handguards.), with a longer reach. The spear by far is my non-firearm of choice. I can easily stab a target through the eye, although I may have to replicate a high-stress situation to see if I could pull off the shot (or rather, thrust). I have been practicing deep-breathing, and can effectively reduce my heart rate pretty quickly (very useful in Z-Day, when pulling off headshots after running). Also, making a spear isn’t too difficult. Fire-hardened wood could pop an eye with ease, as would a shard of flint or glass. Making a sword, however is a different story. You need extensive amounts of time and skill, something in a shortage during the zombie apocalypse.
When our ammo runs out, we go to bows, then once those break, we go down to making bows and slings.
When our swords, knifes and machetes break, we make our spears.
Angryvikingman on 05 Jun 2011 at 8:38 pm #
LOL, with a bandsaw and a bench top belt sander, you can make a sword in 4-5 hours depending on how shiny you want to make it. Some 1/4″x3″x4′ hot rolled bar stock and you can make an awesome sword. I made a bowie, tanto, and kukri out of one bar. Used another one and cut a sword blank. Haven’t had the time to finish it yet though.
QAZZY 1-9th on 06 Jun 2011 at 5:06 am #
Grinding a sword doesn’t make it very strong, you still have to fold and temper it and what not. In a zombie apocalypse, you’d be very lucky to get 4-5 hours.
QAZZY 1-9th on 06 Jun 2011 at 3:46 pm #
I would use it for a knife, but not for something as long as a sword. Mostly because I do not trust my own hands in making something as complex as a sword (it’s definitely not easy). Is hot rolled steel more on the tough and soft, or hard and brittle side?
It would make a nice spearhead, though.
Angryvikingman on 06 Jun 2011 at 7:06 pm #
From what I’ve personally seen and done with it, its closer to tool steel, but its not quite as hard. It’ll damn sure break teeth off a band saw blade no matter how slow you feed it through. Its semi flexible at length, although not a great amount. Less so than the fleamarket blades that I have. As soon as I can get back in the shop and finish my sword, I’ll put pics up so everyone can see and I’ll film some cutting demos and put them on youtube for you guys.
CompShooter on 06 Jun 2011 at 7:06 pm #
The typical HRS (hot rolled steel) commonly found at hardware stores and Lowes and the like is likely to be 1018 aka “mild steel” and at best can only be case hardened to only in the low 40′s on the Rockwell “C” scale. The difference between hot rolled steel and cold rolled steel of the same grade is that the hot rolled stock is literally drawn is a semi plastic state around 1800 deg though a series of roller dies until the desired size where as CRS (cold rolled steel) is forced through below those temps but the final roll is done at a much cooler temp. Hot rolled steel has thin grey scale all over it and the edges are slightly bulged. Cold rolled steel has a nice smooth surface with sharp well defined sides and usually coated in a light oil to keep from rusting (do not confuse smooth with galvanized, chrome or painted). HRS while not dimensionally perfect, machines well and because of the way it was made has less stresses built up from the start whereas CRS is dimensionally nice to work with (I typically machine everything I can in CRS because of this except when machine requirements demand otherwise) but, if you machine a long thin length on ONE side lets say to half its thickness all at once, you will see that the stresses will warp it once removed from the mill and would have to be straightened. Refer to post 105 for my thoughts on grade of steel. I wouldn’t make anything bladed under 1045 by choice. IMHO
CompShooter on 06 Jun 2011 at 7:18 pm #
@ Angry
Just curious, are you using a band saw that is used for wood working? if so, I guarantee you the blade speed is too fast no matter what your feed speed is. Also what is you blade teeth per inch? should be around 14 to 16 TPI
Angryvikingman on 06 Jun 2011 at 8:10 pm #
No, its got a metal cutting blade on it. Its in a metal working shop. IDK the tpi.
QAZZY 1-9th on 06 Jun 2011 at 8:13 pm #
I think I could do some DIY tempering. Getting a M1A synthetic stock and a Remington 700. Left handed guns are hard to find.
Angryvikingman on 06 Jun 2011 at 8:36 pm #
DIY tempering isnt too hard. You can make an oven from some refractory cement or blocks and use gas or charcoal in it. You can make one and have it up and working in an afternoon. You just need 2 vessels for quenching. 1 for water, and 1 for oil. Water makes it hard, but brittle, and the oil makes it less brittle and strong/flexible. Quenching vessles need to be longer than what you’re working on and the oil WILL catch on fire, so make sure you’re prepared for that eventuality.
QAZZY 1-9th on 07 Jun 2011 at 5:26 am #
I was thinking of using my aluminum forge design, make it longer and crank up the heat a bit.
What kind of oil do you use?
Angryvikingman on 07 Jun 2011 at 7:18 am #
You can use old motor oil according to all the stuff I’ve read.
QAZZY 1-9th on 07 Jun 2011 at 7:52 pm #
A question for everyone: what forms of hand-to-hand combat are you familiar with, and what non-firearms weapons do you own?
CompShooter on 07 Jun 2011 at 9:02 pm #
I use a SAE 30 wt for case hardening. Then reheat to under red hot and and quench in water draw back to desired hardness checked with Rockwell scale. The more exotic stuff i use is hardened through n through and needs to be done in a furnace under tight controls through a heat treat company I use.
Angryvikingman on 08 Jun 2011 at 12:57 pm #
@QAZZY
My mom taught me and my sister:
Kung Fu
Karate (Bushi Kai)
And I took Tae Kwon Do after highschool just for shits and giggles.
Then I took ARMA classes for 2 years and learned knife fighting, and grappling on the side.
I watched a lot of weapons katas on youtube and learned some weapons forms other than the sword as well. (I took the Kama form and replaced it with Kukris. :D It was much fun.)
I’ve studied a lot of military and other hand to hand manuals on my own as well. Although, after my wife and I got together and my roommates moved out I ran out of people to practice the harder stuff on because my wife can’t take a hit like a man.
QAZZY 1-9th on 08 Jun 2011 at 5:15 pm #
Tae Kwon Do, personally, is just for shits and giggles before junior high (Tough Mudder was for shits and giggles). Try your hand at Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Krav Maga. The last two are more situation-oriented, but still very effective.
Knife fighting is great, and easy. For fun in college, my buddies and I put on safety goggles (not too hardcore missing an eye, are you?) and got rubber training knives. Covered the blade with lipstick (stolen from girlfriends, we’re not buying it) and did some knife fighting. I see them a couple years later, whoop their asses with Krav Maga and knife fighting experience.
wheelgunner on 09 Jun 2011 at 12:36 am #
I learned in the “Don’t get hit by the 3 foot Razor” syle in backyard brawl melees and duels. Like axes, but you don’t get to play with them very often. Swords and bowies mostly.
QAZZY 1-9th on 10 Jun 2011 at 3:24 pm #
I’m not familiar with that. What is it?
wheelgunner on 11 Jun 2011 at 10:41 pm #
That’s where you try to kill each other for a number of years with melee weapons and survive. Being young helps.
On the plus side, nowI’m pretty good at wound care that isn’t arterial.
Angryvikingman on 12 Jun 2011 at 12:33 am #
We used tomato stakes because we only had one machete. You know, in the interest of fairness. LOL!
wheelgunner on 12 Jun 2011 at 1:18 pm #
We had two options. Get something safe, or get something that could hold up to what we where doing. Been wanting armor for years.
McLuvin on 12 Jun 2011 at 7:48 pm #
If you got body armor and ran around the woods shooting eachother, hopefully a round would find your unprotected throat or femoral artery and cleanse the gene pool of some serious stupid.
Angryvikingman on 12 Jun 2011 at 8:45 pm #
Now now McLuvin, lets be nice. Qazzy, why use 22lr when 177 cal pellet rifles are are just as good. Slower to load yes, but then again you can use the CO2 BB guns, they’re just as good. We used to battle with them wearing coveralls.
McLuvin on 12 Jun 2011 at 10:51 pm #
You can’t deny that running around the woods shooting eachother with real guns is epically stupid. That is the kind of 6 o’clock News bullshit that gives real shooters a bad name.
Angryvikingman on 12 Jun 2011 at 11:19 pm #
True, but there are better ways to say it than wishing bodily harm.
wheelgunner on 13 Jun 2011 at 12:05 am #
‘N here I was feeling bad about attacking my friends with swords.
QAZZY 1-9th on 13 Jun 2011 at 5:14 am #
The issue was completely covering the body, and making sure no one walked into our session of serious stupid. Now we just play paintball or coat rubber training weapons in marking substances (still lipstick) and have knife fights.
“You can’t deny that running around the woods shooting eachother with real guns is epically stupid. That is the kind of 6 o’clock News bullshit that gives real shooters a bad name.” -Why we ended up not doing it. As for eliminating stupid in the gene pool, one of my buds has an IQ a bit lower on the scale (99), while I merely come up with ridiculous plans and things to do.
wheelgunner on 13 Jun 2011 at 11:57 am #
Thus, the stupid in the gene pool.
@Qazzy-I have to ask, because it is bugging the crap outta me, and seems to be your only retort. What is your obsession with the CROWBAR? You act as though it gave you Jesus and a plus two lives upgrade every time you pick up a new one.
QAZZY 1-9th on 13 Jun 2011 at 4:43 pm #
Because you can’t go wrong with a solid bar of metal. In my experience, no bludgeon is more durable or versatile, Max Brooks would agree (I wouldn’t agree with many of his tactics though). If you can smash a cinderblock with a good crowbar, you can smash a skull.
I hope you’re not referring to me as the stupid in the gene pool, I have plenty of ‘smart accomplishments’, but just to stupid/crazy things. When the SHTF, I always get down to business. You don’t mess around in the sandbox.
Jbone89 on 22 Jun 2011 at 6:01 am #
Man you guys are armed to the teeth… when you all conquer post Z America can ya’s boost a plane and fly to Aus and pick my arse up?
As for melee weapons I’ve got a 40 year old cricket bat I’ve wrapped in cut up tin cans, taped down, bound in barbed wire and driven 3 four inch nails through the end of it. Then there’s my Smith and Wesson Bowie knife, I got it when I was 16 thinking ‘holy sh** Smith & Wesson!?” but unlike shoes, knives from big brands tend to be less reliable. Ummm I think there’s a .45 in my Dad’s truck though he might have always just said that to sound tougher than he is (step-parent).
I’m scanning through some sites (ebay, cold steel etc) for some good blades. I agree with the people here who’ve said multiple times now just how dangerous sharp objects can be, especially so when you want to avoid contact with blood altogether.
wheelgunner on 22 Jun 2011 at 12:18 pm #
Ebay is unreliable, and never buy from Cold Steel directly. You can easily save a couple of hundred dollars shopping for them on different sites. Lovie the bat-mace of doom.
Reaver on 27 Jun 2011 at 1:08 pm #
This is post and I’m going to be my first post and I’m already the odd one out… Has anyone considered getting just a good hardwood bokken and using that? blunt force trauma with those things would easily kill and they are extremely durable and require next to no maintenance. You also wouldn’t have to worry about creating aerosol form contagions.
Reaver on 27 Jun 2011 at 6:44 pm #
too many typos in that…
wheelgunner on 27 Jun 2011 at 8:23 pm #
I have to use live steel because bokkens(and my beloved ax handles) have a nasty habit of breaking on the first hit I make on something.
Reaver on 27 Jun 2011 at 9:51 pm #
that would be a problem. are you using soft woods or parts that are bolted together or something?
wheelgunner on 27 Jun 2011 at 10:07 pm #
I hit hard. Very, very hard.
Reaver on 27 Jun 2011 at 11:26 pm #
lol. that still shouldn’t cause it to break unless you’re using inferior wood or hitting a very hard angled object. smooth group 5 solid hickory bokken can stand up to pretty much anything and last years.
wheelgunner on 28 Jun 2011 at 12:29 am #
Guess I just have bad luck.
McLuvin on 28 Jun 2011 at 12:41 am #
What the hell are you hitting to break an axe handle in one hit? They are designed to take years of impacts.
Reaver on 28 Jun 2011 at 10:21 am #
are you hitting the axe with the axe handle? that might do it. :D
wheelgunner on 29 Jun 2011 at 12:31 am #
Hardwood logs. In the past five years I’ve gone through at least fifteen ax handles, often in the first couple of hits, warped a fiberglass handle, bent one made out of a heavy steel pipe, and have nearly had my eye put out when an ax head exploded and sent shards flying everywhere. Really don’t want to think about how much money I have spent replacing axes. I hit hard, and have bad luck, best I can tell.
Reaver on 29 Jun 2011 at 10:11 am #
you troud really try getting quality treated hickory. that wood is pretty much purpose bred for taking repeated impacts and hitting hard. police used to use it in truncheons and batons, it’s still used in bokken meant for full contact sparring and also for fighting staffs for various martial arts disciplines.
I’d also suggest getting your axes from a better source. an axe head exploding from hitting a hardwood log means that is was probably cast metal or made by a substandard manufacturer and had fault lines all through the blade.
wheelgunner on 29 Jun 2011 at 12:36 pm #
It was an extremely old and well used one my grandfather has been using for longer than I’ve been alive. Made me sad, and nearly got me beat when I showed up with it broken.
All the axes I’ve ever used have had hickory handles.
Reaver on 29 Jun 2011 at 8:21 pm #
ah. probably rusted through or fractured then. and to answer your earlier question quazzy, I reached red belt in Tae Kwon Do, Purple in Aikido, was a varsity wrestler (held the 130 spot, 50/50 win lose never lost by pin or tec) and own several knives and staffs, planning on getting a katana and bokken soon.
Reaver on 06 Jul 2011 at 11:50 am #
when does part 2 of this come out? I want to see how asian weapons such as the katana and kukri would do.
Angryvikingman on 06 Jul 2011 at 8:25 pm #
Should be this weekend.
Best Knife Sharpening Tools Blog on 04 May 2012 at 3:02 pm #
Considering A Ontario Heavy Duty Machete Blade Handguard…
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