Z-Day: Combat Without Firearms part 2
In part 1 of Z-Day: Combat Without Firearms, we covered European Blade Martial Arts. In this segment, we’re going to cover Asian Blade and Unarmed Martial Arts. Asian Martial Arts are some of the most well known Martial Arts on the planet due largely in part to Bruce Lee, and the movie/tv industry. We know all the names of the most popular styles:
Karate (includes Weapon forms)
Kung Fu (includes Weapon forms)
Tae Kwon Do (mostly unarmed)
Though you may know the names of these schools or systems of martial arts, there are many that aren’t as popular, but are equally as deadly and efficient. For now though, lets focus on the more popular styles of Asian Martial Arts. For the sake of time, and to save space on the page, I’ve listed the martial arts and provided a link to their wikipedia pages along with a video demonstrating the style.
Tae Kwon Do
Tae Kwon Do DemoKwon Do
Weapons forms for Eastern Martial Arts generally use several of the same weapons: Staff, Spear, and Sword, so I will provide some video links to several forms for each of these weapons.
Karate:
Kama (this is the kata I use to practice 2 handed Kukris)
Bo Staff
Tonfa (Night Stick)
Katana (Performed with Bokken, but any2 handed single edged sword can be used)
Kung Fu
Bo Staff (Almost slow enough to learn from.)
Dao (Chinese Broadsword. Watch the other videos in his series to learn the whole form. Useful with large latin or panga machetes )
Spear (Very similar to Bo form, just with a pointy stick. LOL)
As you can see, a variety of forms can be used, and weapon choices are as varied as their users. Many other weapons and forms exist, and ZAC encourages you to learn as many as possible before Z-Day arrives to help raise your chances of surviving the initial outbreak and the insanity to follow.
(Yes I know I left out videos for Tae Kwon Do, but its weapon forms are almost interchangable with a lot of Karate weapon forms.)
Comments (55)
Semper Cogitant on 16 Jul 2011 at 4:58 pm #
Martial arts can be useful in the zombie apocalypse, but their use is fairly limited. My own training (many years ago) was in Shotokan Karate, and the only weapon I trained with a lot was the Tonfa, though like everyone I also used nuchucks some – there was a required nunchuck kata. I would certainly use what I learned, including the weapons (tonfa in the form of Monadnock PR-24 batons).
However, as I say the use is limited. If you are hand to hand with zombies you are in serious trouble and the point would be to break contact and move away as quickly as possible. The idea of killing a bunch of zombies, or anything, with a martial arts weapon when they are within arms reach is unrealistic.
My plan would always be to get a little distance and go to the gun, or just to escape if that looked safer. Risking a bite, or contact with their blood, would just be too dangerous.
Other martial arts weapons:
Swords, if you know how to use them, are very good in our scenario.
Spears and pole weapons give a little distance and are very good for zombies, my favorite is a common shovel.
Flails, like nunchucks, can be deadly, but they are easily entangled and no where near as effective against the undead as they are against the living.
Shuriken are a joke. Movies make you think they are some super weapon, but they were designed for harrasing rather than killing. They are difficult to be accurate with, and even if you are accurate it’s hard to kill with a 2″ blade, even harder to kill a zombie.
Sai is not much use against the undead, but they are cool so I figured I’d mention them. Also, it’s weird that they look like the Greek letter Psi and share it’s name. Non sequiter, but interesting.
Many people have unrealistic views of martial arts from movies and demonstrations they’ve seen. Everyone should keep in mind that zombies probably won’t pay much attention to the choreographer, so movie martial arts won;t work.
Angryvikingman on 16 Jul 2011 at 6:46 pm #
I prefer the K.I.S.S. method. Keep it simple stupid. Give me a stick to smash with, hell, even a bokken will do a lot of damage, or a sword to cut with.
As far as a scenario goes, as I have said many times, I’ll take on any 3 zombies or humans with a blade. I’ve won against that many and more in sparring. Any more than that, and I’d definately stand back and use the gun. You can hamstring a zombie/human and finish them off at your leisure, so incapacitate and then move on to the next target.
As far as unarmed, I wouldn’t punch a zombie in the face, but joint blows can disable even zombies, and a swift kick at a 45 degree angle to the knee will achieve the same as hamstringing with a blade. Kick them down onto their stomach and a stomp to the base of the skull and they’re rag dolls. Even a ridge hand to the base of the skull will sever a spinal cord. You can also snap the neck via torsion. If they’re shufflers, then you can just move around until you’re in position behind them, and SNAP! Just wear some leather gloves and you’re good for hand to hand.
Reaver on 16 Jul 2011 at 8:40 pm #
I’d prefer to avoid any neck snapping techniques. even with protection they put your arms and hands too close to the mouth for comfort. My Z day H2H loadout will probably consist of a bo staff that willbe used as a walking stick and will always be on hand, a katana and a wakizashi. about 5 lbs worth of weight for the blades and the bo staff will actually help me carry more, besides being great for knocking Zeds back and cracking skulls.
Semper Cogitant on 16 Jul 2011 at 10:25 pm #
Boken is an excellent close quarters weapon, and can deal tremendous damage as bell as being used for defense and control. I should have mentioned that one too.
Neck snapping works and takes surprising little force, and would probably disable a zed if you can get behind it. The only problem is it takes both hands to really be certain, and with multiple opponents that’s problematic. Certainly it can be done with one hand, but it’s hardly as easy or as certain. I think it’s something I’d avoid trying, at least with multiple zeds present.
Immobilize and move away, then kill at relative leisure, as you say is the right plan in a HTH situation. Destroying the knee or fracturing the tib/fib badly, or severing the leg muscles or hamstrings should reduce a zed to a slow crawl.
I need to break out the PR-24s and practice, that’s a skill I’ve neglected for a long time, and one that would be indispensable after Z-day.
QAZZY 1-9th on 19 Jul 2011 at 9:24 am #
As for neck snapping, it’s effective if the zombie is also on top of you, or you’re on top of them. You can snap their neck CoD style.
As for Kung Fu, it’s pretty much dancing. Fond a target, and practice spear thrusts until you’re accurate with it. K.I.S.S.
QAZZY 1-9th on 19 Jul 2011 at 5:10 pm #
*Find, not fond.
As to keeping it simple, I have a feeling a big metal pipe will still be effective. A big stick is fine for killing things.
Reaver on 19 Jul 2011 at 6:37 pm #
bo staff beats metal pipe. less weight so you can move it faster.
wheelgunner on 19 Jul 2011 at 11:15 pm #
Depends upon the pipe. Hand shock though, and velocity, ick. I like the oxtail dao, but I can’t find a sword that will hold up. And remember, Kung Fu is now Wushu, since the Brits outlawed it back in the day. Not nearly the art it was, the way I understand things.
QAZZY 1-9th on 20 Jul 2011 at 2:27 pm #
The bo staff beats maybe an aluminum pipe, but the mass of a steel pipe beats any velocity you can generate with a bo staff.
wheelgunner on 20 Jul 2011 at 3:40 pm #
I still say depends upon the pipe. Diameter, thickness, length, and all that. Men who fall pray to modern is always best often seem to find themselves a little bit dead. The staff will be easier to carry and replace.
McLuvin on 20 Jul 2011 at 4:56 pm #
The metal pipe vs Bo has nothing to do with modern. It’s simple physics. The heavier pipe doesn’t need to go as fast to generate the same power. Having said that, the extra weight would be harder to carry and swing for any length of time. This argument comes down to how much is enough. If you can generate enough force to crush a skull using a 5′ staff that is light and easy to carry(walking staff), that would be a better choice than a 3′ pipe that weighs more and needs to ride on your back.
Reaver on 20 Jul 2011 at 5:11 pm #
a bo just seems like a better choice than a metal pipe in genral. one on one you’d easily be able to crush a skull, and with crowd control the ability to stike multiple time rapidly and decreased inertia would outweigh the increased striking power of a pipe. plus the bo you could carry constantly. Hauling a metal pipe the same length as a bo staff around all the time would be very tiring. Also on an unrelated subject, those hook swords in the picture for this article would be absolutely horrible for a zombie apocalypse. better than nothing certainly, but they were designed for combat against other weapon wielding opponents, to trap the blades and handles. they get caught in bodies too easily for z day type combat.
Reaver on 20 Jul 2011 at 6:38 pm #
oh, and if you want to increase the killing capacity of the bo, put metal studs around each of the ends to decrease the surface area the impact force is spead across when it makes contact.
Angryvikingman on 20 Jul 2011 at 8:04 pm #
Well, the picture is just that, a picture. I didn’t include them in the literature above because I know they wouldn’t be great in a zombie fight. Well, unless you cut off the hooks and tapered the ends into a point, then they would be pretty good. Good for handguard and pommel smashing.
CompShooter on 20 Jul 2011 at 8:48 pm #
Hmm wonder how one of those Klingon fighting two handed blades would be , assuming that it was of quality steel.
QAZZY 1-9th on 20 Jul 2011 at 9:08 pm #
I believe it was tested on Deadliest Warrior, and a blow to the head with a Bo staff is not lethal. I’d carry one with maybe a blackjack stuck to one, or hell, a knife. Goddamnit, give me a spear
Reaver on 20 Jul 2011 at 9:12 pm #
all dependa on the bo staff they use. High grade tempered hickory in a 1 inch diameter rod would crack some skulls for sure. Wait? did the deadliest warrior testers swing it? that would explain a lot. those tests and simulations they do are ridiculous. how exactly does putting a grenade inside a washing machine test it’s killing potential, I ask you.
Leor on 21 Jul 2011 at 11:53 am #
wing chun staff technique looks useful for defending a base from a superior postition, say on a roof where they can reach you.
Leor on 22 Jul 2011 at 11:08 am #
the problem with most martial arts either tradtitional or modern is that they are aimed at killing humans.
By the way, is there anyone here who thinks he can kill a person with one punch to the head or the neck? anyone here think he can do it more than once in a row?
Reaver on 22 Jul 2011 at 1:58 pm #
a punch? no.
Angryvikingman on 22 Jul 2011 at 11:03 pm #
A ridge hand or chop to the c1 and c2 vertebrea can cause instant death or paralysis, either way you win. Do I think I could do it? Yes, most definitely. A bunch in a row? Probably not like trying to chop boards, but more than once, yeah if the opportunity came up, but thats unlikely.
pyroman16 on 23 Jul 2011 at 11:26 am #
I already take Tae Kwon Do lessons, and I’m a fast learner.
survivor811 on 23 Jul 2011 at 6:41 pm #
these are all good, personally i am working on Kempo with a focus on mui-thai and okenawin techniques. (sorry if my spelling is off there)
QAZZY 1-9th on 24 Jul 2011 at 12:16 am #
I could say I could semi-consistently kill with strikes to the neck, and very reliably kill with a knife.
Reaver on 24 Jul 2011 at 12:25 am #
eh… for human opponents, a knife is good. for Z’s? not really. the only way to kill with one would be through the eye socket or underneath the throat if the blade was long enough, or from behind through the base of the spinal cord. if you’re close enough to use a knife against a single zombie, back up. If you’re close enough to use one against a group, run. If you can’t run, you’re screwed. the ONLY time I would consider using one is against one that didn’t know I was there, from behind, and even then I would probably use my katana to maintain distance.
Angryvikingman on 24 Jul 2011 at 10:10 am #
The Human/Zombie head is vulnerable to knife strikes anywhere except the forehead. And really, you can put one in a forehead, its just generally thicker and if the head turns its more likely to deflect the blow. The sides and top are the best places for stabbing. Under the chin is good if your knife is long enough, and at the base of the skull is good if you have the time and really want to get that close.
QAZZY 1-9th on 25 Jul 2011 at 6:12 am #
A stab underneath the skull and through the palette works, as does a stab through the temple
wheelgunner on 29 Jul 2011 at 11:43 am #
An actual katar might not be bad for zed hunting. Giant punching dagger. Kusarigama woudn’t be bad either in my opinion. What do you think about rattan stick fighting style for this?
Reaver on 11 Aug 2011 at 10:50 pm #
thinking about it, a znbato, nodachi or odachi would be excellent for fighting hordes. large scything weapons that can cut through a horse and rider in one blow should handle about 5 zeds in a hit easy.
P Cheng on 13 Aug 2011 at 1:17 am #
As Leor pointed out earlier, martial art systems were designed against human opponents, the katas or forms would be effective against human instinctive reactions and movements. On the plus side, many martial art forms are designed to fight stronger opponents, or faster opponents, or multiple opponents. (Not all three at once, though.)
I believe I will have to recommend against unarmed martial arts because it just isn’t ideal. Plan on never being unarmed.
Realistically, “traditional” weapons probably will not be very effective. The majority of the weapons sold today under most western governments are not designed to be “battle ready” and using a sword that you bought for one hundred USD at the mall can be a fatal mistake. Forget what you see in video games and on TV, actually decapitating a person is a skill that martial artists of old train in for years before attempting to use in battle, most people will not be able to pick it up and just do it. In Japanese swordplay, there is “kendo” and “kenjutsu”, the difference being that “kendo” is a sport while “kenjutsu” is the actual use of a sword. In Chinese martial arts, wushu is a sport and should not be confused with martial arts. Most places in the western world that teaches “martial arts” really teaches something more like “sport” anyways. A good way to remember which is a martial arts and which is a sport is to learn the things that are not allowed in competitions. In a real life-or-death situation, there are no rules, no points to score, no penalties.
The problem with our unrealistic expectations is that while many people have “sparred”, few people in this day and age have actually had to wield a weapon and hacked and slashed their way through some carnage. Games like “Dynasty Warriors” teaches us that it might be possible to kill hundreds of enemies in a few hours and cause us no more discomfort than perhaps carpal tunnel syndrome. The truth is that after a few mighty swings, the vibrations will cause the hands to go numb and grip weaken. Martial artists used to swing their weapons against hard objects to train their arms and hands to become accustomed to the feeling so that they can continue to fight no matter how long the battle goes on. I regularly chop firewood with an eight pound splitter maul with a fiberglass handle, and usually after about five to six hours, my arms are useless for anything else the entire day, but when I first started to do this about three years ago, I could only do it for about an hour and a half before I had to stop.
All I’m saying is that if you expect to use martial arts against zombies, seriously plan for it by training your stamina, strength, and skill.
P Cheng on 13 Aug 2011 at 1:50 am #
As far as a weapon goes, it will have to be something practical. You just can’t find a battle ready katana anywhere in the United States for less than a few thousand dollars, but on the other hand, you can buy a Gerber Gator machete for less than twenty. It is a great survival tool for clearing brush and the “gator” toothed saw side is good for moderate wood sawing, as well as being a decent weapon if you have nothing else. If you really must use something like a katana, Cold Steel makes a two handed katana-inspired tanto style machete. Grey Eagle also makes a good tanto-style machete. Because the Gator is only a quarter tang design, I would recommend against prolonged use of it as a weapon. I’d go with a tanto-style or a panga-style machete for use as a cqb weapon, with a full tang design and a good grip.
The machete has a fast switchback and decent destructive capabilities, but will not have range. I’ve seen some good ditch bank blades that look like they can combine damage and range, but are slightly unwieldy and somewhat unreliable. I would definitely recommend something with a fiberglass handle or something that’s designed for impact.
Good gloves are important. Protecting your hands against impact will definitely help you land more strikes. Blackhawk makes all kinds of good protective gear, and I would also definitely check out the local army surplus store.
The
Reaver on 13 Aug 2011 at 12:03 pm #
I disagree that you can’t find an excellent battle ready katana for under a few thousand. there are some very goof models out there in the $300 range. look at kris cutlery for an example.
QAZZY 1-9th on 13 Aug 2011 at 6:29 pm #
I’d still with a machete for cost-benefit purposes. E-6 is definitely up there as far as enlisted pay goes, but I can’t buy a katana without sacrificing some serious Mountain Dew.
Plus, with a machete, you’re more assured of it working. How many katanas out there can withstand serious hacking compared to machetes?
P Cheng on 13 Aug 2011 at 10:12 pm #
Well, I stand corrected. I haven’t really looked into katanas seriously but it seems the machete is still fairly popular. As far as specific styles go, I would seriously recommend bagua dao for the dedicated machete user. It is a style designed for use against multiple opponents, emphasizing the principle of zone control. A master of the bagua dao will theoretically never be touched, because if a Z gets within range of your machete, it will systematically lose body parts until it is completely obliterated.
As far as a spear or the substitute ditch bank blade (kaiser blade, what have you), I’d strongly recommend a naginata style, like the Tendo Ryu or the Boku-ryu. The naginata is a glaive-like weapon designed to overcome stronger or bigger opponents, it combines destructive power with range. I believe that glaive-like weapons and martial arts styles are probably better than strict stabbing spear styles because the destructive power of horizontal attacks are probably more efficient for dealing with multiple Zs. The true beauty of the glaive styles however, is that you can have three or four people standing in a square and form a protective phalanx, or to stand in a wall formation, which will be much more efficient than a single dao user, since multiple dao users might sometimes get in each others’ way. The naginata is an easier style to pick up, so training multiple comrades in the styles to a level of sufficiency will be easier than to train the same people in bagua dao, simply because the range is greater, the destructive power is greater, and there is less of a need for precise strikes. However, the risk is that the switchback (time between attacks) is also greater and might leave you vulnerable if you miss. Therefore, if you are using a glaive-style, companions are not only more efficient, they can also save your ass. A single master dao user can probably be self-sufficient because the switchback is insignificant, if his skill and stamina are high enough, can probably clear a large group in less than an hour. Again, real practice is recommended. There are groves of trees near my house that I regularly chop through to get the feel for chopping things.
Reaver on 14 Aug 2011 at 9:51 pm #
naginatas in groups? that’s just asking for friendly fire incidents. the naginata requires a long sweeping attack and a lot of clear room to swing. It would be next to useless indoors and in cramped quarters, so the only places you would get full usage would be parking lots and open fields. add that to the fact that every person using one would need their fellow survivors to be at least 10 feet away at all times and they aren’t that practical. stabbing spears make more sense, and a large claymore type weapon is the upper limit to what I would consider as a employable cutting weapon.
QAZZY 1-9th on 14 Aug 2011 at 10:57 pm #
I think spears would be ideal. They’re efficient, don’t require too much technique, easy to maintain, and don’t require much movement. All Asian weapons tend to be effective, but require too much training. A spear keeps it nice and simple.
Reaver on 15 Aug 2011 at 8:41 pm #
oh, I know spears in groups are effective. That’s the primary tactic employed by the Spartans at Thermopylae, and is the basic counter to a cavalry charge. I just meant that naginatas in group fighting are not very efficient or practical, something the ancient japanese realized and they had all but completely phased out the naginata in favor of the yari (a more conventional stabbing spear) by the Tokugawa era.
Reaver on 15 Aug 2011 at 8:42 pm #
and for very close quarters combat in confined spaces, my ideal weapons would be a gladius hispanicus, a wakizashi or a ko katana.
wheelgunner on 16 Aug 2011 at 11:42 am #
Gladius without scutum is near useless. I point most people overlook, is how effective sheilds are as a weapon. There is a tale of a Roman marine who had his sword hand hacked off as he was jumpimg aboard the enemy trireme. He prosceded to kill the entire compliment on board with nothing but his shield.
Reaver on 16 Aug 2011 at 12:27 pm #
it all depends on your fighting style. I tend to dislike full size shields, and prefer a buckler, or another weapon in my off hand. using two short swords at once, or sword and tomahawk, or sword and dagger can be very effective.
Something that many people tend to overlook as a possibility for CQB is the style favored by Pirates in their golden age, where a sword is wielded in your off hand and a pistol in your main. you block and perform incapacitating attacks with the sword, then press the pistol to torso or head and fire at point blank range.
QAZZY 1-9th on 16 Aug 2011 at 3:14 pm #
Bayonets are overlooked in my opinion. They’re versatile, and can be used as a long or short ranged weapon. The M16 solid stock can crush bones, and MCMAP teaches you how to use it effectively in very little time.
McLuvin on 16 Aug 2011 at 6:26 pm #
The bayonet is still a poor choice. Short blade on an unbalanced, relatively fragile “shaft”.
Reaver on 16 Aug 2011 at 6:57 pm #
I’d be very reluctant to use my gun for melee unless my life absolutely depended on it. Guns have too many moving parts that can be broken, twisted, bent or knocked out of place. at the least you could knock your scope off, crack the lens or get blood all over the sight adjustments that would take forever to clean off.
wheelgunner on 17 Aug 2011 at 10:58 am #
Here we go again. Don’t forget that “Pirate” pistols had no rifling, no sights, a weakness to WATER in the firing mechanism, where to fragile and expensive to drop, and where generally more effective as clubs and physicoloical warfare than usefull as pistols in the modern sense.
Also, it would be a pistol in your off hand, sword in your main, as nobody would want to weild their sword in their less than optimal hand.
@Qazzy-Bayonets are so overlooked that every world power for the last 400 years have issued them. A point I beleive that you overlook is that Civilian firearms don’t have bayonet mounts, and alterin them to have such will generally just downgrade the rifles performance, and get untrained persons killing by the score. And the range is pitiful.
Becides, I see no one lining up to teach me Goverenment Issue fighting styles, much less equipting me to use them properly.
P Cheng on 17 Aug 2011 at 3:57 pm #
The problem with bayonets (and realistically other stabbing weapons as well, but even worse for bayonets, especially the ones that are also used as survival knives and have saw grooves on their top edge) is their tendency to stick and become difficult to pull out. Many yari also had hooks designed to catch and manipulate enemy weapons, but they also had the downside of becoming caught on things for an unskilled user. The spear is designed with reach and a small point because this is ideal for finding the small holes in enemy armor or have ridiculously high penetrating power by focusing on one single point with so much strength behind the thrust. Therefore, a yari or any type of stabbing weapon is optimal against single human targets. I based my recommendation of the naginata primarily because it is a weapon primarily designed for slashing with greater power than a sword, combining great destructive power and range, a weapon that is designed for use against multiple opponents. The momentum from a slash could be used to incapacitate multiple opponents, and a simple turn of the wrist can be used to change the direction of the blow with minimal loss of momentum, although not quite as effective as a sword. The slashing motion can be trained relatively easily, and used to great effect in situations where the combatant has adequate room to swing. In addition, it is also a very capable weapon for short-ranged combat for an expert user, although it takes a certain level of skill. As a dedicated naginata user for twelve years, I feel like the naginata is the right weapon for my own style of combat when I am going on the offensive.
The difference between offensive and defensive styles of martial arts can be summarized simply by the principle of range and reaction. A defensive style is based primarily on the enemy moving himself within range and then reacting to his attack and countering his assault. Offensive styles focus on moving towards the enemy until he is in your range and then either overwhelming him with the power of your attack, or focusing on precise strikes to hurt your enemy. Although there are offensive styles that incorporate reaction to the enemy, by definition you are not on the offensive unless you initiate the attack. Generally defensive styles offer more efficiency than offensive styles. That said, the concept of range is very important, and your style has to complement your effective range or compensate for a lack of range. For example, since I am relatively short, my reach isn’t great, but I am light, so I’m more agile than most opponents, so I have become pretty efficient at short range offensive combat. I have trained and practiced for 10+ years in pancek silat, and I believe that I have a good understanding of many other styles of primarily Asian martial arts. My armed styles compensate for my lack of range and relatively low amount of power, the naginata with a style that focuses primarily on slashes but my hands move fairly freely down the shaft to adjust for range. I am also fairly proficient with the wing chun dragon pole, another style that compensates for my lack of range, although I think the pole style is more of a defensive style than the naginata styles.
I think the shield idea has merit. It would be hard to find a martial art style that incorporates a shield, but the principle concept of the shield will be mostly use as a bashing instrument or if the edges are sharpened, as a stabbing or slicing weapon. Either way, it would probably be easy to learn and very practical as Z survival will probably be more focused on defense as the most efficient way of staying alive. I imagine that the Greeks might have some ways of using the shield effectively as a weapon because their hopelites usually carried a good sized buckler and a spear into battle, although I wouldn’t know for sure. The Romans were used to carrying javelins and tower shields, which are probably more similar to the modern-day anti-ballistic shield. A while ago I thought about the idea of incorporating a katar style for dual buckler wielders, or perhaps simply using katars that have arm guards on them. Most unarmed and short ranged armed combatants (daggers, some escima stick fighters, some nunchucku, &c.) will use a small bracer-like piece of armor on their forearms to help defend against weapons with longer reach.
You guys have very many good ideas though, and I am eager to see your replies if you have any criticism on my analyses on styles.
Reaver on 17 Aug 2011 at 4:30 pm #
If you’re well trained with a naginata, then use it, by all means. The trick is finding what you can use effectively and sticking to it. I’m just leery of naginatas for groups due to the large amount of training required to use them effectively, and reach limitations. for close range combat in groups, it seems like the roman style would be best. shield wall, stab at head and other parts until the enemy drops and expose as little as possible.
and @wheelgunner, yeah, pistols had many of those problems in the age of pirates, but the style was still effective, and would be more so now that misfires are less common and pistols can fire multiple shots. some people would prefer to switch the style around so the sword was in main hand, and that could very well work better for them. I’m just fairly ambidextrous and train both arms to use a sword effectively, but my aim is steadier with my right hand.
wheelgunner on 18 Aug 2011 at 12:35 am #
First thing-A naginata is harder to come by than a katana that doesn’t chip the first time you hit something relatively hard.
Second-Polearms do not switch easily from hand to hand, and with few exceptions rarely have more range than a sword, and are far less effective for mano-y-mano combat. They have a niche in certain types of combat, primarily as loose formation anticalvary and specific botttled location fighting.
Third-I once read, and have personally have seen nothing to disavow this, that a master of the staff has the potential to defeat any combatant in the feild of battle.
Forth-ANY weapon, upon making contact with anything that can aply pressure to the sides of it has the potential to become stuck, though the more damage the weapon does in one attack, the more likely they seem to be to become stuck when striking said objects,being more liklt to sink into it.
Fifth-As fight has never been one solely through defending, neither has it by never attacking ones oponent. Skillful use of your art wherther it focuses on one or the other is all that really matters.
Six-Tower sheild is a D&D term, not an actual recognized term. That said, Romans sometimes carried a javelin, the pilum being the one most people reference, though there where several more, which they threw in mass from 5-15 yards in order to make their oponents trip, or drop their sheilds as the iron shank tips bent into them and added 5-7lb’s to the front of them. Dual sheilds is mostly gimick. You come at me with two sheilds I would either hack you to ribbons with a combo or turn them and your arms into splinters. A mace would serve you better.
Seven-The best way I know to tell someone to learn to use a sheild in any way is buy a one inch dowel three feet or longer, and get a buddy to swing it at you. Start at half speed, and be careful, sheilds are heavy.
Eight-The pistols back in the day where built half club, and everything that makes modern ones more dependable makes the less capable as melee tools. That said, going in PO-PO style with a Maglite has killed more than a few peole over the years. Hard to go wrong with the flashlight that is a club.
QAZZY 1-9th on 18 Aug 2011 at 1:17 am #
An M16A2/4 is more than durable enough for bayonet duty. You can also slash with it, that’s the second move they teach you. Serrations also do not make it significantly harder to pull out, and not all bayonets are serrated. You can find many manuals to teach you how to do these moves (very easy to learn and master), and there are plenty of ARs with the proper mount.
I wouldn’t complain about the blade length; it’s a thrusting weapon.a quick, effective movement used multiple times is very effective against opponents.
But if you really want your naginata thing, find some duct tape, a broomstick and a machete.
P Cheng on 18 Aug 2011 at 3:53 am #
I suggested in an earlier post that a slasher/sling blade/hook blade/kaiser blade/ditch bank blade can be substituted for a two handed slashing weapon similar to the naginata, although it will be significantly heavier. These things are made to clear heavy undergrowth where you would need more reach than a machete would be able to provide, so they will be good in situations where you need a bit more range. They are designed for fairly heavy work and are pretty durable. I’ve used the same one on my farm for the past three years. The best part is that these can be found at any home improvement stores or hardware stores, so if you break one, it is easy to replace.
I don’t have a naginata since I left mine in Taiwan (kinda hard to sneak it through customs, especially after 9/11, didn’t even bother to try), but I have recently been researching some sites that look promising for a good replacement. For now I have made several weighted practice sticks. I live on a twenty-acre orchard, so I have a few hickory trees and I actually plant and sell black walnut trees to lumber mills, so I have made a few good practice sticks imitating many different weapons, with small metal inserts to simulate the approximate weight of the actual weapons. Like I said, a kaiser blade is good enough for now. I strongly recommend getting one with a fiberglass or other impact resistant shaft because a wood one will eventually break while a fiberglass or something with a shaft guard will ultimately be more durable.
I recommend polearm weapons because in a survival situation against Z opponents, you will not do any mano y mano fighting, although the possibility is very real that you will encounter survivors that want to steal your resources, in which case it is very likely that you will be outnumbered, which the naginata is especially designed for. If you’re talking about moving the polearm weapon from hand to hand as in changing the position of your hands along the shaft, it really depends on your style, although generally you would hold it similar to a sword, with your dominate hand above your less dominate hand. If you’re right handed, your right hand would be closer to the head so you can guide the weapon, and your left hand will provide much of the thrusting or slashing force. Switching hands is as easy as letting your dominate hand go and moving it under your other hand. This is actually a technique used in many styles to temporarily extend your range in exchange for a small amount of accuracy.
My glaive optimal 1-step range (The range that you can cover with the action point of your weapon from your original position by taking up to one step toward a target) will generally be anywhere between one to three yards (under a meter, to something like two meters, I think? I’m a little dusty on my conversions). A one handed sword will have an optimal 1-step range of between generally between one yard to two yards. A strict polearm like a traditional pike or lance weapon will have a range between two to four yards depending on the length of the weapon. A two handed sword of course will have a range similar to my glaive range, but still under a traitional polearm range. These measurements are based on the concept of the “sword step”, the idea that the average length of swords in almost all cultures worldwide is based roughly on the cubit, supposedly the oldest measurement of length defined as the average length of a man’s forearm. The optimal length of a sword is usually defined as close to the length of twice the length of the wielder’s forearms, thus a average sword length will be somewhere between two to just under three feet. An average measurement of a step or a “pace” is somewhere around 30 inches, just under 3 feet. Many unarmed styles incorporate the idea of a “half-sword step” or a “one-and-half sword step” to overcome the the predicted effective range of a sword.
The reason that it is said that staffs can potentially defeat any weapons is because the staff has no obvious weakness, it is a virtual jack-of-all-trades among weapons. By wielding it closer to the end of the shaft, you can extend your range and power, similarly by wielding it closer to the center of the staff, you can adjust for shorter ranges. Because it is not weighted down by a bit of metal, it is relatively light and has a really fast switchback. Most spears, especially wielded closer to the tail end or if not weighted properly, will have the tendency to droop at the head, so when you do almost any motion with a spear or other polearm weapon you generally have to fight slightly against this problem. Picking a staff is based on your style, but a good general rule of thumb is that a staff should not be longer than your arm span. However, the rule is also that since the staff has no singular “action point”, the lethality is usually quite low compared to other weapons. Although they are excellent for “defeating” other opponents, they are less useful for actually killing the opponent.
The reason why I mentioned the bayonets sticking is because I used to work at a vet’s nursing home and I have heard many stories that in close quarters trench fighting during WWI, the veteran infantry will not use their field-issued bayonets because it was hard to retrieve them from the ribs of fallen enemies. Many soldiers started using the shovels that they were using to dig the trenches as melee weapons. I imagine that the army might have fixed this problem by now, still my bias is established against bayonets. I am, however, very open to hearing PRIMARY accounts to the contrary. If you have experience with a live bayonet simulation, I will be happy to consider your experiences. My own experiences says that few things can withstand horizontal slashes, and I don’t believe I have ever gotten a tool stuck with a horizontal slashing motion.
Concerning the “tower shield”, it is a modern term that is fairly accessible. The proper term for the “Legionnaire shield” is the scuta, or scutum, I’m not sure which is more “proper”. I only used the term because if I say “tower shield” it is a generally accepted term in pop culture, while if I say, “scuta”, I would have to explain that I meant, “Tower shield”.
I realize that dual shields is mostly a gimmick. I introduced it only as an idea I was toying with. I was mostly thinking of incorporating the idea more as an unarmed fighting style, similar to traditional karate and aikido, where practitioners would use heavy bracers called “hakuo” (I think that’s the term, although I might be wrong) in fights against armed opponents. The bracers were usually made of wood or leather and lacquer with small metal scales and basically amounted to small shields or gauntlets worn on the arms. The idea is that a bladed weapon would generally slip off the bracers, allowing you to move past an armed opponent’s effective range. It is also similar to the Chinese martial arts styles that uses the iron rings. Although the rings were used primarily for physical training, strength and endurance, they were also used by warrior monks sometimes as an alternative to bladed weapons, since they believe that murder was wrong, they shunned bladed weapons. By attaching small bucklers to your arms, the idea is that you gain similar or greater short-ranged defensive capabilities as an unarmed karate user with bracers, but you sacrifice some agility for what amounts to dual defensive and slicing offensive capabilities. It would be a style that’s defensive and simple to understand, therefore most suitable to the least experienced combatant who simply needs to stay alive on your team. All he has to do is protect the vulnerable parts of his body and push some enemies aside every now and again, something that requires minimal training. I mention shields because a crucial aspect of survival is defense. For use against Z and human marauders, a good ballistic shield might be a simple and effective deterrent that can buy a crucial extra moment. Mobile cover can also be used to buy some time for reloading or switching clips or for getting a companion back on their feet. It’s an idea worth considering in my opinion.
Speaking of the Maglite, I used to have a 24 inches long beauty. It was a heavy beastly object, and I have found that it can double wonderfully as a good hammer for pounding in tent pegs or anywhere you need a good blunt striking tool. The fact that it doubles as a powerful flashlight makes a good Maglite almost indispensable in any good survival kit, no matter what the situation. I believe that these things have been tested by being run over with a truck, so they can take a serious beating. I strongly urge any serious survivalist to get one, they are great for camping, as well as any emergency situations. The only thing I can say negative about them is they are a bit on the heavy side and somewhat unwieldy, so I would probably not use them in a common power outage if I have to hold a flashlight for a good amount of time.
@ Qazzy: I have found some different combat manuals in my local army surplus store, but most of them seem to be from the Vietnam or Korean War era. Do you know if combat instruction has changed significantly now? If so, where can I get updated army combat instruction manuals?
McLuvin on 19 Aug 2011 at 10:26 am #
I know some cops that destroyed maglights by using them as a club. They are tough but can’t take serious impact without the tail cap coming off and the batteries flying out. If that happens you just lost your club and your light. Use a dedicated weapon instead.
Reaver on 19 Aug 2011 at 6:35 pm #
yeah, tools that double as weapons tend to be mediocre at both. but if you really want a flashlight with offensive capability, Surefire’s are decent.
QAZZY 1-9th on 19 Aug 2011 at 11:37 pm #
The most basic bayonet methods haven’t changed since Korea/Vietnam, and they’re simple and effective. The M16 is plenty durable, and you’ll be hard pressed to damage it doing a simple trust.
I have serious issues with Oriental weapons/styles. They aren’t oriented for modern combat, and require too much training to be effective. Military-taught systems like Krav Maga, MCMAP or combatives are easy simple and very effective.
I wouldn’t use a flashlight as a weapon. If it cones down to that, stuff two tube socks with gravel and knot. The 5.11 Tactical supercapacitor flashlight and Surefires are personal (pricey) favorites, but they last, and they work.
As for a primary account of bayonet usage, when I was in 0311 (before feeding to 0321), I’ve seen guys kill with their issued bayonets. The newer ones will not get stuck, and can pierce a layer of 6061 aluminum and a Kevlar vest no problem. I’ve gotten more things stuck with a horizontal slashing motion than with a stab. Modern knives with modern steel don’t have those WW1 f***ups.
3-15 INF on 25 Oct 2011 at 3:53 pm #
I would think if this zombie thing ever happened, a bayonet would be an awesome weapon. I have heard so much disagreement, but I stay by that opinion. The main reason bayonets have fallen out of use is because you have rapid fire, easy to reload weapons. Against an opponent trying to physically bash his way past a door, I could defend quite easily (so could anyone else), using thrusting motions. With the weight of a 8-10 lb rifle behind it, a bayonet could slip right throught the eyes and nose to the brain.