Combat Shotguns For The Zombiepocalypse
So you think that grandpa’s old double barrel will save you against a small group of zombies, much less a large hoarde? THINK AGAIN!! You’re going to need a real COMBAT SHOTGUN to do the job. In this article, we’ll examine a few different types of combat shotguns that are available to the civilian market, and some aftermarket accessories that will push them to the NTH degree of zombie splattering scatter guns.
Combat shotguns are a class of weapons that are often underrated. Yes, some do have limited ammo capacity, and can be slower to reload, but that does not negate their effectiveness for certain situations.
The SAIGA 12:
The Saiga-12 is a 12-gauge combat shotgun available in a wide range of configurations, visually patterned after the Kalashnikov series of assault rifles. Like the Kalashnikov rifle variants, it is a rotating bolt, gas-operated gun that feeds from a box magazine. All Saiga-12 configurations are recognizable as Kalashnikov-pattern guns by the large lever-safety on the right side of the receiver, the optic mounting rail on the left side of the receiver and the large top-mounted dust cover held in place by the rear of the recoil spring assembly. The looser clearances offered in an AK style design result in high reliability—an enormous boon on a semi-automatic shotgun, as this class of weapon had previously tended towards unreliability. The Saiga-12 is manufactured by the arms division of Izhmash, in Russia.
Here are some videos of the Saiga 12 in action: Video 1 Video 2 Video 3 (Video 3 is 45 min long and compares the Saiga 12 to the KSG and Remington 870.) The Saiga 12 has magazines from 5-30 rounds. The Saiga 12 is the top choice of ZAC for its raw destructive power, speed in reloading, and volume of fire.
Semi Auto Shotguns (Non magazine fed, Any maker)
Auto loaders, powered by recoil or gas are popular in hunting and competition shooting the world over. Ranging in capacity from 5-12 rounds(with tube extensions). Available in almost all sporting goods stores, pawn shops, and gun stores, these weapons can be a lethal and effective weapon. The downside to this class of shotgun is that they often malfunction during feeding/ejection. Capable of the destruction of the Saiga, just not as quickly. You can buy speed loaders, but you must be very practiced with them. (No videos, everyone has seen these in action on TV)
Popular models include:
FN SLP Mark 1
Remington Model 1100 Tac 4
Mossberg Model 930 SPX
Pump Shotguns (any maker)
Powered by physically actuating a pump mechanism, these shotguns rarely malfunction unless there is a problem with the brass on the cartridge. With a capacity usually in the 8+1 range, they’re capable of being fired almost as fast as a semi-auto in the right hands. This class of shotgun has been popular in combat for over 100 years due to its rugged reliability and versatility.
Popular models include:
Remington 870
Mossberg 500
Double Barrel Shotguns
No… just… No…
Considering the reload time between every two rounds, this is next to useless unless you have no other options. The first time you see any other type of shotgun, check that it functions, and ditch the relic.
There is a legitimate use for a shotgun, and generally its for some secondary purpose. For small groups of zombies, a shotgun in the right hands can be as effective as any rifle or pistol.
Recommended accessories:
Some sort of sights other than a normal bead sight (ghost ring, red dot, etc.)
Speed loaders (practice, practice, practice)
Large capaciity magazines (12+)
YOU’RE NOT EVER, EVER, EVER GOING TO GET YOUR HANDS ON AN AA-12, SO DON’T EVEN MENTION IT IN THE COMMENTS. IF I EVEN SEE IT, YOUR COMMENT WILL BE DELETED. IF YOU WANT A FULL AUTO SHOTGUN, BUY A SLIDEFIRE STOCK FOR A SAIGA-12.
Comments (153)








Angryvikingman on 10 Jul 2012 at 10:08 pm #
Yes, I lean heavily towards the Saiga 12, but thats because of my experience with them. I also love my Mossberg 500.
I believe that a large group of shotgunners, 10+ could roll into an area infested with zombies and lay waste to a multitude of zombies using a shoot and scoot method known as the “Peel”. You make a defensive line, and then as one person empties his weapon, he retreats to a new position and reloads, and the others do the same. As they near running out of ammo, they hop on a vehicle and bug out. (Yes, I know this isn’t the exact definition of a “peel”, but it’ll do for a lay person.)
Another tactic would be firing on a large group of zombies from above. The second or third story of a building. That way you have a little spread and can possibly score multiple kills with one shell, even with bird shot.
McLuvin on 10 Jul 2012 at 11:29 pm #
I think the Saiga set up properly would be the best shotgun for zombies. However they tend to be very finicky unless they are tuned by someone who knows what they are doing. It’s also not a gun most people can afford. The base gun is around $600 and the conversion is the same or more. Add a couple hundred for magazines and you have a pretty pricey scattergun. The average of the Saiga owners I know is around $2,000.
You say the semi-auto combat guns are prone to malfunction. That is not the case for most of them. If you buy a quality gun it should run 100% from day one. Obviously any mechanical device can fail and duds do slip through the cracks, but the percentage of bad guns from top brands is miniscule. The FNH, 11-87, 930SPX, and Benelli are all good guns that will generally handle any shell you want to feed them.
Angryvikingman on 11 Jul 2012 at 12:11 am #
The last 3 gun tournament I was in, I watched 3 guys with the FNH autoloaders and all 3 had malfunctions. It was a little rainy, I’m guessing that was a contributing factor. And the cheapest I’ve ever seen the FNH is right at $1000.
As for the Saiga being finicky, it has a LOT to do with the gas system. There’s a $25 fix for it, a 5 position gas block. The 2 position one it comes with just really only likes hot loads, buckshot, and nitromag bird shot. The 5 position lets you shoot the cheap stuff.
The cost of the Saiga is a little steep, but if you have even base mechanical knowledge and an internet connection you can do the stock/trigger conversion yourself. (Or just buy the tapco stock/pistol grip.) All you have to do is drill out a few rivets, move the trigger group, and re-pin it. (in a nut shell) You can set up a pretty decent Saiga for around $800-$1000, depending on the base price of the gun. Here they’re running around $600. Even then, you can still run a base model Saiga with the bigger mags.
Here’s a clip that shows how to fix the cycle issues for the Saiga 12.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ1LcopZHKg
HangMan on 11 Jul 2012 at 12:50 am #
When it really comes down to it: go with what you know. As unfortunate as it is, some people might not have experience with a wide range of shotguns or they may just not have a feel for them. Or maybe they only have experience with double barrels. A good sawn off double barrel, both handle and barrel, would make for a decent back-up weapon. Cut it down to bare minimum and that would be a slick weapon. *shrugs* In the end, it’s what you have the most comfortable fit with is what you should go with. It’s how you use your tools is what’s going to save your gore soaked skin from the undead. Build up proff. with what you have and practice regularly.
Docwade on 11 Jul 2012 at 10:01 am #
@Angry
I like Carolina shooters supply and use their puck. What everyone seems to miss, including this video, is that the puck needs to be hand fit for length. The extension engages the gas pistol too early and actually pushes the bolt carrier back about 1.5mm. This translates to the gas piston slamming against the back of the new gas plug. Now, this problem may have been addressed with the new five position plug included with the kit. However, with the md arms gas plug and especially with the tac47 autoplug, the rear puck extension has to be ground down.
The peel is not intended for protecting a withdrawal and is designed for effectiveness when you know your enemy qrf is going to be coming from one direction (along the axis of your retreat). Now what happens when targets start popping up along the sides of the peel? How about when they are already at your and you are just barely alerted to it by the faint sounds of small arms fire to your rear? Now you’re surrounded or at least in a “press” and have to move right or left perpendicular to your planned egress, low on shells because, oh yeah, you’re loaded out with 12 gauges!
Angryvikingman on 11 Jul 2012 at 10:45 am #
@Docwade
Ok, didn’t know about the tail needing to be ground off, but all things considered, thats not a hard thing to fix.
As for the Peel, I’ll agree with you that its not perfect tacticaly speaking, but depending on your surroundings, it can be an effective tactic. I.E, really open terrain, and long corridors with choke points. I have to find my Ranger handbook again and look at the Peel again. Been a few years since I read it…
Even if you don’t like that, you have to agree, shooting on a large crowd from above with shotguns is a good idea, and at about 25 yards you’re getting a good spread, and scoring a few kills per shell. Just shoot out at an angle for maximum effect, and pick off the ones closest to the building with 22lr.
Docwade on 11 Jul 2012 at 3:19 pm #
If you have a 22 rifle and are already in your elevated position, why wouldn’t you just use the 22? I think it would be a waste of shotgun shells.
Angryvikingman on 11 Jul 2012 at 3:45 pm #
Well, it all really depends on how much of each type ammo you’re carrying. If I was carrying 100 shot shells, and 100 rounds of 22lr, I’d be inclined to see how many I could get with the shotgun first before I spent those precious 22lr rounds. If I had 1100 rounds of 22lr, then I’d just sit there and pick them off one at a time.
Docwade on 11 Jul 2012 at 4:06 pm #
If I had a hundred of each and I was in A BUILDING, I think I would use the 22 ammo and keep the precious 12 gauge to fight my way out of the flipping building!
Docwade on 11 Jul 2012 at 4:13 pm #
“‘You know fighting in a basement offers a lot of difficulties, number one being you’re fighting in a fucking basement!’”
— Inglorious Bastards.
Docwade on 11 Jul 2012 at 4:35 pm #
Better yet, why are considering engaging 100+ zombies in the first place? Especially I you only have 100 22lr and 100 12 gauge shells?
Angryvikingman on 11 Jul 2012 at 5:18 pm #
Well, if you were in the building and you had tried to wait them out, and used up all your food and water, and you had to fight your way out or die, and you knew almost certainly that there were no more zombies for at least 10 miles, what would you do?
I think I’d do my best to get groups together with the shotgun and if I hit 3 with each shell, then that’d only be 33 shells, and one to cap with the 22lr. So I’d have 67 shells, and 99 22lr rounds left. So, seems like a good way to do it to me. IDK, seems like we have a lot of the same thoughts about some things, and radically different ones about others.
wheelgunner on 11 Jul 2012 at 6:26 pm #
I’ve been thinking about a pistol grip shotgun as a multiuse backup for a full size main carry. You can get a new one in the $400 range, and you don’ need a whole gob of accessories to use it.
To be clear, just for use as a close quarters backup, or for special use. If nothing else, it would be easy enough to find ammo, or to stow across a backpack without being a major inconvenience.
Docwade on 11 Jul 2012 at 7:08 pm #
@Angry
The scenario I interpreted from an earlier post was, you were going to “go out and meet the enemy” sort of thing. I don’t think shooting at them from a window is a good idea. I mean, if you really want to take the fight to them, cage a steam roller and go to town! No shooting required.
McLuvin on 11 Jul 2012 at 7:51 pm #
Wheelgunner- have you ever shot a pistol grip shotgun? They are next to useless. You don’t get the spread you are assuming. At close range your pattern is only a few inches across so accuracy still counts. Accuracy with a pistol grip shotgun is not easy. I’ve seen people try to use one for bowling pins at 20-35′. They couldn’t hit anything from the hip and when they raised it up to eye level they punched themselves in the face. Although hilariously funny, it wouldn’t be very effective for zombie headshots. A standard 18″ combat shotgun isn’t much more cumbersome when stowed vertically on a pack and is much better for everything.
Angry- you are using many assumptions in your scenario. 3 zombies per shot, no more zombies for 10 miles, prefect building of proper height and window placement. That is a very precise scenario to plan for. I’d rather avoid the big crowds and find a nice quiet place to fortify. Also, getting 3 zombies with a shot could potentially happen, but expecting to hit(let alone kill) 3 with every shot is just silly. You can’t guarantee how your shot is going to pattern from round to round. You could hit 3 or you could hit air. I’ll do my best to go 1/1 and just be ecstatic if I get a bonus from time to time.
Docwade on 11 Jul 2012 at 8:01 pm #
I didn’t even want to get involved in the shot-per-kill scenario possed.
ArmchairSoldier on 11 Jul 2012 at 10:46 pm #
I have been following the discussion and thought I would throw my two pennies in.
I would agree that the shot/kill ratio of 3:1 is plausible, but that would depend on the size of the approaching horde and the area through which they are attacking from. My best guess is that the scenario is that you are alone and scouting/foraging in an urban environment. I would think that the fire and retreat/reload would work as you can use the abandoned vehicles to impede their progress and thus gaining precious seconds to assess your escape route. As the mass approaches, they will move in a straight line first to you, running into the car/van first and allowing you to fire on them. The downed zombie would then serve as a secondary obstacle to trip the oncoming mass behind it. In this scenario, 00 buckshot will get at least a 2:1 kill/shot ratio. A problem should you retreat to a multi-story building is how would you obstruct the surge that is following you. Office furniture down the stairs would help, but you don’t have the luxury of time to search. I would say that the ideal weapon to use would be the shotgun and saving whatever secondary weapon for when you have time to dig in/secure. One saving grace is that with each downed zombie, you have created a new secondary obstacle. (Max got that one right…)
But if you use the initial 10+ shotgun armed line, I would still have 2-3 whose sole purpose would be to watch the flanks and rear to prevent encirclement. At least then you could retreat to a multi-story building and hold it for sometime.
I own a Rem 870 express/tac and agree with the pistol-grip consequence. I would not change out the grip as it would not make it easier to handle. That is my just my thoughts on the subject, please feel free to pick them apart.
Angryvikingman on 12 Jul 2012 at 9:49 am #
If my neighbor has a ladder long enough to get on my roof, I’m going to climb up there this afternoon and do a video on my theory about multiple kills per shot from an elevated position. I’ll use some 2 liter bottles filled with water and place them in a 5-7 foot diameter circle about 20 feet or so from the house. Granted, a 2 liter isn’t the best analog for a human skull, I don’t have the money to go out and buy that many watermelons just to blow them apart.
McLuvin on 12 Jul 2012 at 11:33 am #
That will be an interesting experiment. How are you going to space them? Just off the top of my head, I’m thinking a crowd all mashed together would probably have around 10-12″ between heads.
Angryvikingman on 12 Jul 2012 at 12:48 pm #
Thats what I was thinking also. Neighbor gets home in about 3 hours. If my house was just a few feet shorter, I could get on top of my wife’s minivan and get up there.
wheelgunner on 13 Jul 2012 at 12:13 am #
Sounds like a potential advantage to me.
McLuvin on 13 Jul 2012 at 3:17 pm #
How’d it go?
Docwade on 13 Jul 2012 at 7:26 pm #
Trying to post, but post isn’t showing — test post
Docwade on 13 Jul 2012 at 7:34 pm #
Box of truth #20 shows 00 buckshot at twenty yards a only opens up between 9-13 inches depending on brand of buckshot.
McLuvin on 13 Jul 2012 at 7:46 pm #
My post about box o truth didn’t show either.
That test shows the most spread possible. They use unbuffered buckshot that deforms when fired. The deformation causes pellets to fly more erratically and spread more. Normal buffered buckshot would have considerably less spread at the same distances.
You would obviously get more spread with birdshot, but only the largest sizes would give you the ability to penetrate a skull with any certainty.
Docwade on 13 Jul 2012 at 7:49 pm #
Yup, that was with the unbuffered wolf 00 buck. The buffered stuff on opens up to 27″ at 45 yards!
Angryvikingman on 13 Jul 2012 at 8:10 pm #
I fell off my roof and broke my arm and cracked 3 ribs. Just kidding. My neighbor never answered my texts and it was raining anyway, so I didn’t get a chance to shoot the video.
specially equipped guardsman on 14 Jul 2012 at 10:46 am #
First off viking I think its awesome that you live in a place where going up on the roof and firing into back yard is even open to discussion. Must be nice.
My favorite combat shot gun (my only shotgun) is the Mossberg 590A1. I just find it comforting that I can mount a bayonet if I feel the need.
I was thinking of putting a Gen II knoxx spec ops stock on mine. Anyone have any experience with them?
survivor811 on 16 Jul 2012 at 12:08 pm #
just pointing out that while multiple kills are great when fighting a horde you seem to be counting on them too much. it is nice when you get it but if it isnt just right it’ll be a waste of ammo when you could’ve easily taken one out with the shot.
Docwade on 16 Jul 2012 at 4:08 pm #
That’s it? No more posts? I don’t get to hear about bolo shells or carrying a dozen drums for your saiga? I’ll bet it’s because s12′s aren’t on call of duty.
McLuvin on 16 Jul 2012 at 4:43 pm #
They’d post more if Viking hadn’t squashed their dreams by Disallowing AA-12 comments. Several of these guys are high ranking AA-12 masters on COD. They just can’t talk about because of the thread rules.
I still want some kind of proof that many of these people have shot real guns.
wheelgunner on 16 Jul 2012 at 9:26 pm #
Me too? Ha. Have we brought up dragon’s breath? They do have that on COD. And a local gun shop, which scared me.
specially equipped guardsman on 17 Jul 2012 at 9:30 am #
I’m wondering if its possible to get rifle like accuracy out of a non-rifled barrel. Does any body make a Discarding Sabot flechette round?
McLuvin on 17 Jul 2012 at 10:12 am #
There are discarding sabot rounds for shotguns and rifles. They are all designed to be fired out of a rifled barrel though. Without rifling it’s hard to stabilize the projectile. If projectiles aren’t stable they won’t fly consistently.
specially equipped guardsman on 17 Jul 2012 at 6:25 pm #
Yeah, I’m wondering if there’s a fin-stabilized discarding sabot in 12 ga. Like what the APFSDS used by the M1 series tanks 120mm. Its a smooth bore, and pretty accurate so I’m told. I’m thinking having a couple of those in my side saddle might be handy if I needed to hit a point target.
McLuvin on 17 Jul 2012 at 7:21 pm #
The only fin-stabilized 12ga rounds I’m aware of are the Taser XREP and the explosive shell developed alongside the AA-12. If you are just looking for some extra range in your shotgun, a standard slugger is pretty accurate.
Docwade on 17 Jul 2012 at 8:53 pm #
Yeah, more range, and uh, less recoil, oh, and better accuracy… I wish they made something that would do THAT. If only someone would make “something”, that fired a self contained “cartridge” out of perhaps a “rifled barrel”, that would possibly self load after each shot.
All terms in parenthesis are not to be used without the expressed written permission of Ricky Bobbu industries.
wheelgunner on 18 Jul 2012 at 1:48 am #
Ha!
wheelgunner on 18 Jul 2012 at 1:50 am #
You can get good accuracy out of a wad loaded musket. That’s the closest I know to get to rifle accuracy from a smoothbore.
TZH on 18 Jul 2012 at 9:33 am #
I just wanna chime in for the Benelli M3. It can be easily switched from a pump-action to semi-auto. Why is this important? it can allow you to shoot rapid-fire in semi with full combat rounds. if you need to employ special munitions or reloaded & hand-made ammunition, the pump-mode can do this for you. versatility and durability are hallmarks of this model and I believe it would be the perfect shotgun if only it wasn’t so expensive! ;-)
stay vigilant!
Angryvikingman on 18 Jul 2012 at 10:28 am #
I like the benelli M3, just didn’t make the short list because you can’t find very many of them at dealers anymore. And the M4 is just freaking ugly.
McLuvin on 18 Jul 2012 at 11:42 am #
Wheelgunner- If you think a “wad loaded” musket is accurate, we obviously have vastly different definitions of accuracy.
TZH- there are no “specialty” rounds you should ever need that wouldn’t cycle a normal Benelli or other quality shotgun. The only three types of shells you will ever need are buckshot, slugs, and birdshot. All of these will run fine. Any other type of shell is extraneous.
wheelgunner on 18 Jul 2012 at 2:39 pm #
Depends on what you are doing. I like specialty shells.
Wadded musket can shoot 2″ groups at fifty yards. I didn’t say let’s all go out and replace our rifles with them, but the question was accuracy from a smoothbore. I was just chiming in.
McLuvin on 18 Jul 2012 at 4:17 pm #
“Depends on what you are doing. I like specialty shells.”
What specialty shells and why?
SemperCog on 18 Jul 2012 at 5:39 pm #
Coming late to this one and it looks like it’s been pretty well covered.
I think if you’re going to use a shotgun as a primary weapon you definitely what a semi-auto with a detachable magazine. Reloading one without a detachable magazine takes too long.
A shotgun might have an advantage in a crowd of zombies, if they are packed in tight you might get lucky and take out two or even three with one shot, and you might at least knock over and immobilize some from other than head shots.
The Saiga is great, but it’s heavy, and so is the ammo. You would be much more limited in what you can carry on the move, having to trade off ammo with other supplies. If you are going to go with a shotgun as a primary weapon the Saiga is the way to go.
I wouldn’t pick a shotgun as primary, but would want to carry one as a back up weapon and for utility uses like opening doors in a hurry. Something compact with a fairly short barrel.
I would say that in defending a position from a wave of zeds, or in clearing a building or enclosed area, the Saiga would be the ideal weapon.
Docwade on 19 Jul 2012 at 2:39 pm #
I don’t think it’s necessarily ideal. Just in ammo weight between a rifle in pistol caliber or rifle vs 12 gauge 00 buck, a rifle with a quality red dot woul better serve you for clearing an enclosed area. We are back to talking about close quarters, and 00 buck shot doesn’t spread as much as you think it does. It also doesn’t blow people off their feet so, hits other than head shots won’t have the effectiveness you are looking for. Thirty round double stack mags will trump 30 round shotgun mags just in the reload. You can run a saiga drum in a magwell modified weapon so you already lose time with the tip in mag. You also have difficulty tipping in a saiga drum on a closed bolt, so you lose time looking open the bolt before a reload.
wheelgunner on 19 Jul 2012 at 4:56 pm #
It still spreads though. And I do prefer a little margin of error in tight like that. A quarter of an inch versus 3″ of bullet going before you can make a major difference.
McLuvin on 19 Jul 2012 at 6:16 pm #
You can have your extra margin of error. I’ll take a bunch of extra rounds, as backup, to correct my errors.
Docwade on 19 Jul 2012 at 8:55 pm #
That extra margin of error won’t make up for lost time in mag changes and fewer mags and ready ammo. I run a Saiga 12. I run one fast and relatively accurately. I would still prefer my rifle and aimpoint.
McLuvin on 19 Jul 2012 at 9:09 pm #
Yup!
Hershel Greene on 20 Jul 2012 at 1:13 am #
Well, all you young whippersnappers should just carry what I do: a good old Remington 870 with infinite ammo. I never have to reload or worry about running out of ammo!
brian on 21 Jul 2012 at 4:18 am #
Hey,I know u don’t wanna hear absolutely anything about the aa-12,but y can’t any civilians get one? I was jus wonderin,plz don’t delete this.
Angryvikingman on 26 Jul 2012 at 12:51 am #
They’re class 3 destructive devices made after 1986. Its non-transferrable to civilians by federal law. The only people who can get them are Military/LEO, and companies/people with class 3 destructive device federal firearms licenses. The cost and paperwork required to obtain a class 3 DD FFL is prohibitive to say the least. There aren’t thousands of them floating around out there at dealers either. Thats why I said that.
ATTENTION ALL MALL NINJAS: YOU’RE NOT GOING TO GET AN AA-12!!!
If you want a fully auto shotgun, get a Saiga-12 and put a slidefire stock on it. DONE!
(slidefire stocks for AK/saiga12 can be found here: http://www.slidefire.com/products/gun-stocks/ssak-47-xrs )
McLuvin on 26 Jul 2012 at 9:35 am #
Infinite ammo?!?
Viking, can’t you screen these people?
Angryvikingman on 26 Jul 2012 at 1:08 pm #
I can, but we have to have fun somehow.
Docwade on 26 Jul 2012 at 5:40 pm #
I prefer having the BS’ers post and not get screened. It gives me something to post about. Come on you dual desert eagle wielding, 7 rifle carrying, 1000lbs carrying, katana masters!
Docwade on 26 Jul 2012 at 5:42 pm #
AA12…but it has 7 different kinds of stainless steel in it!
wheelgunner on 26 Jul 2012 at 6:51 pm #
I thought it was COCA COLA recycled aluminum cans that the government was going “green” with in a spray of red and lead.
Docwade on 31 Jul 2012 at 10:21 am #
And dead. No armchair shooters want to play anymore?
Angryvikingman on 31 Jul 2012 at 7:33 pm #
LOL! Guess not Doc. Hey guys. Guess who stumbled inadvertantly into the knife business? Yes, yours truly has started making knives. Getting my first batch of knife blanks tomorrow. Hopefully soon I’ll have a website up with full details and pictures, but for now I’ll leave you with that little nugget to ponder.
McLuvin on 31 Jul 2012 at 10:15 pm #
I hope that doesn’t keep you from starting new topics here in a timely fashion.
Angryvikingman on 01 Aug 2012 at 5:15 am #
Nah, I’ve already got another one about finished. Prison: Fortress or Folly?
Zombie Book on 01 Aug 2012 at 9:27 am #
Knife business huh? I’ve always been partial to knives and blunt force objects being better tools in the zombie apocalypse. Guns are great, if you’re not being over run. Knives are quiete…..
Angryvikingman on 01 Aug 2012 at 10:55 am #
Yep, and I’ve even designed a headsman’s ax/tomahawk that should take a head off in one clean blow.
Got 5 knife designs ready to go. :D Just building inventory.
McLuvin on 01 Aug 2012 at 12:18 pm #
What steel are you using?
Angryvikingman on 01 Aug 2012 at 12:42 pm #
1095 for now. When I can afford some more exotic stuff, I’ll experiment with it.
Got 5 knife designs, 4 of them I love, 1 I only like. I’m supposed to get my first set of blanks in today or tomorrow. When I get them, I’ll post some links on here to photobucket so you guys can see them. Gonna try and finish that new article today.
Angryvikingman on 02 Aug 2012 at 11:12 am #
Just in case you guys wanted to look at some of my knife designs.
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.448675268487939.98686.100000364104536&type=1&l=5e79fa7ddd
These are for the blanks, I’ll draw grind lines and handle scales on them later for a look at the finished knives.
Zombiekiller1318 on 07 Aug 2012 at 1:00 am #
Remington 870 tactical, ’nuff said!!!!
Ryan on 07 Aug 2012 at 8:46 am #
The problem is that it’s illegal to buy fire arms in the UK or any sort of weapon like that so we are kinda screwed
zombiekiller1318 on 08 Aug 2012 at 11:49 am #
@Hershel Greene – that is too funny! I think he’s trying to be funny looking back to the season 2 finale of walking dead when Hereshel is stand there with a 4+1 870 and fires like 10 shots in a row. I hope they fix these types of issues in the future.
wheelgunner on 16 Aug 2012 at 11:58 pm #
I like double barrels…
wheelgunner on 17 Aug 2012 at 7:22 pm #
At what range would .410 be lethal to a zombie? ?Birdshot or buckshot both if you can?
wheelgunner on 17 Aug 2012 at 8:39 pm #
Also, what are y’alls take on pistol grip with stock stocks versus a standard shotgun stock?
McLuvin on 17 Aug 2012 at 10:30 pm #
Double barrels are way too slow for a zombie situation.
Pistol grips alone are useless. You can’t point a shotgun well unless it has a stock. As we’ve discussed previously, a shotgun doesn’t spread sufficiently to make aiming unnecessary. If you mean a shoulder stock that also has a pistol grip, then that is just personal preference.
The actual gauge of the shotgun doesn’t really make a difference in killing range. A single 00 buckshot pellet has the same lethality and range out of any gauge(velocity being equal). The bigger bores just give you more pellets to increase your hit probability or energy on target. A .410 would have less effective range only because the pattern would become thin much sooner. That range would actually vary from shot to shot as patterns can’t be predicted. One shell could have perfect dispersion and hit at 25 yards while another could have a hole in the middle big enough to miss the head entirely.
As far as lethal range in a perfect scenario, I’d say buckshot 75 yards maximum and most birdshot 30 yards maximum. That would be an average maximum for birdshot obviously as #2 heavy game loads will travel much better than #9 trap loads.
Angryvikingman on 18 Aug 2012 at 6:22 am #
I wonder how hard it would be to alter a regular pump or semi-auto shotgun into a magazine fed zombie shredder? There are readily available magwell Saiga mags, and pretty much all you’d have to do is add a magwell* with the proper angle and seating depth to position the shell for insertion into the chamber. This could be accomplished by studying the angle and depth of the loading gate, which I’m sure varies by manufacturer.
*Adding a magwell would of course take quite a bit of milling and modification to the receiver of the shotgun, but its something that could probably be done with a dremel tool.
I remember in the 90s there was a aftermarket accessory for the mossberg 500 that let you put a 10 round drum on it called “The Sidewinder”.
McLuvin on 18 Aug 2012 at 6:52 am #
You have to remember that normal shotgun actions aren’t designed to strip a round out of a magazine. They require the lifter to put the shell in line with the chamber. It may not be feasible to remove the lifter mechanism and get a magazine high enough for the bolt to catch a shell, but low enough to not interfere with bolt travel. If you recall, the Sidewinder fed shells into the mag tube not the receiver. I think I’d rather stick with a tube-fed gun or just buy a Saiga.
Angryvikingman on 18 Aug 2012 at 7:08 am #
Yes, I remember. However, on a pump gun you’ve got all kinds of room in the chamber, and you could possibly add a small feed ramp/guide to align the shells to properly enter the chamber. You just need a way for the bolt to push the shell down as it goes rearward and pick up the shell as it moves forward. Hell, IDK, probably would have been done by now if it were possible, or at least feasible.
Angryvikingman on 18 Aug 2012 at 8:21 am #
Thinking about picking up an Akdal MKA1919. Just came out this year, and accessories are finally starting to trickle out for them. There is some serious potential for these guns. Hopefully the dang ATF doesn’t go all but nutty with them.
wheelgunner on 19 Aug 2012 at 1:50 am #
What about a Taurus Judge?
Docwade on 19 Aug 2012 at 12:29 pm #
The akdal has been out for a few years. Hi cap bases are made by only one company and a mag will cost you over $100. It’s a nice base platform, but saiga 12′s are already out and have the accessory support. Firebird customs makes some nice stuff, but it’s pricey.
Docwade on 19 Aug 2012 at 12:30 pm #
No on the Taurus judge, unless you’re Mark Wahlberg in Max Payne.
wheelgunner on 19 Aug 2012 at 2:33 pm #
What’s wrong with the Judge?
Docwade on 19 Aug 2012 at 3:27 pm #
Uhhhh, what’s right with the Taurus judge?
McLuvin on 19 Aug 2012 at 4:34 pm #
The judge is an oversized piece of shit. Why would you want a handgun that shoots .410. The payload on a .410 is so small that the pattern past 15 feet would be too thin to guarantee any significant hits. There are only a few shot sizes big enough for skull penetration and with them you only have a handful of pellets in a random pattern hoping to hit brain. .45 colt was a good round 125 years ago, but it is too big and heavy for the power level by modern standards. The case capacity is wasted with smokeless powder. You are carrying around less ammo in your loadout because you chose an inefficient cartridge. It is also not popular enough anymore to be considered. Most shops don’t stock ammo in much quantity. You could find a few hundred rounds in local shops maybe, but you could get thousands of various other rounds.
To summarize, .410 is useless out of a long gun so in a handgun it’s even more so. .45 Colt is a bad choice due to its large size and relative scarcity. The judge is a very large, unwieldy revolver that can fire two sub-par rounds. Only an idiot would think that is a good choice.
Docwade on 19 Aug 2012 at 5:23 pm #
That funny, because I’m pretty sure McLuvin owns a judge.
wheelgunner on 19 Aug 2012 at 6:03 pm #
It just seemed that if we are going to talk shotguns, might as well throw all of them up on the table.
And I’m sorry, but a few hundred rounds still sounds like a lot of bullets to me, even when compared to a few thousand. I doubt I’d be able, or even want to, pack a few thousand with me to begin with. That is a lot of weight and bulk that I will probably not have free at the time I find it.
I also still like the .45 LC. Sorry guys.
McLuvin on 19 Aug 2012 at 7:19 pm #
You obviously didn’t get the point about ammo weight. You only have a limited carrying capacity so picking an unnecessarily heavy ammo means you can carry less. If we assume that you can carry 15lbs of ammo along with your other supplies, why not carry 600 9mm instead of 300 .45 Colt? We’ve already decided that “stopping power” is a moot point for zombies so 9mm is plenty effective. If you absolutely need .45 because you’re a moron, the ACP is a much better choice.
Docwade on 19 Aug 2012 at 7:20 pm #
Maybe it was a public defender.
wheelgunner on 19 Aug 2012 at 11:50 pm #
ACP doesn’t run through my rifle. Otherwise, I would have switched over a long while gone.
For hunting, that stopping power is still a big deal, and a .45 LC is proven in that category, and I am much more comfortable with it. They only make a few revolvers in 9mm anyhow, and I don’t run automatics all that often. I also am looking at guns I can run in my normal life, not just an “optimized” zombie outfit. I have to look at stopping power and accuracy for my shooting knowledge and style as considerations for the firearms I purchase.
Besides, I’m a wheelgunner. I would no more know what to do with an overabundance of ammunition than I would with an alien laser cannon.
McLuvin on 20 Aug 2012 at 10:16 am #
Wheelgunner- The fact that your weapons are bad choices for the zombie apocalypse has been long established. Your stopping power for hunting argument is not accurate as ACP is almost ballistically identical to .45 Colt. Unless you are handloading or buying custom heavy loads the difference is miniscule. Even the lowly 9mm can cleanly kill small to medium game. Your fascination with antiquated weaponry is amusing, but this is a zombie-centric website, if the guns aren’t suited for the task at hand you shouldn’t keep bringing them up. You keep saying that you can’t shoot modern, optically sighted rifles as well as your iron sighted vintage guns. I maintain that if you can’t shoot an AR-15 with a red dot that you probably can’t shoot anything well. The same goes for semi-automatic handguns. If you can’t shoot a 1911/Glock/Beretta etc., you probably can’t shoot a schofield either.
As for what to do with an over abundance of ammo, SHOOT MORE ZOMBIES!
wheelgunner on 20 Aug 2012 at 12:44 pm #
What do you define as medium game? What about comfort level with the weapon? Or, knowledge of how it shoots?
Actually, I can shoot an Ar-15 with a red dot at least as well as the next man. I just don’t trust the gun to function, or to have that stopping power that I am accustomed to. Comes from shooting antiqued guns and revolvers. Stopping power makes up the slack for lower capacity, but you already know all of this.
As far as not bringing up my preferences because they are not “suited for the task at hand”, on the contrary, I think that that is why they should be brought up. Why not? They are what I like, and they will in all likelihood be used by someone else. Why not discuss it, and get all the information and feedback you can on how to use it best in the situation at hand?
And, look at it from my point of view. When everybody who “optimized” gets through raiding a shop, I”ll still be able to walk in and get whatever I want, because nobody shoots the same cartridges as I do.
McLuvin on 20 Aug 2012 at 1:27 pm #
Medium game= whitetail, small hogs, coyotes.
Reliability- a quality AR is just as or more reliable than a levergun.
Power- check your facts. Unless you are using some super hot custom loads(that your guns can’t handle), .45 doesn’t beat .223 for power. As we have discussed on here many times in the past, stopping power is not a factor for killing zombies. Since the only thing that puts them down is a brain shot, extra power is merely wasted. You say that the extra stopping power makes up for the lack of capacity. That is simply not true. If 30 zombies are swarming at you a 17rd 9mm beats a 5rd 500S&W every time. On board ammo capacity and fast reloads are the order of the day.
Familiarity- if you can shoot an AR “as well as the next man”, why do you claim you aren’t familiar with it. Since you are familiar with it, it would be the obvious choice for zombies.
wheelgunner on 20 Aug 2012 at 3:16 pm #
I have shot one. I do not consider that being familiar with any gun. Do you consider yourself familiar with any gun you have meerly shot?
What do you think of .357 magnum? As I recall, you scoff at .32 caliber, like .22, and hate .45. What about more standard rounds for rifles? .308, .30-06, .30-30, .270, what have you? What other pistol round do you recommend besides 9mm?
I like having one cartridge that I can run through all of my guns. One ammo, multiple guns. Harder to stockpile, easier to get in the habit of carrying and reloading.
McLuvin on 20 Aug 2012 at 4:12 pm #
I’ve yet to find a gun that I couldn’t become familiar with in a few minutes. I prefer some over others, but I can shoot any of them.
.357 is also a bad choice. Too much recoil, too much noise, low capacity, slow reloads, wasted power. There aren’t any .32 caliber rounds worth considering. I actually love the .22 and have preached it’s virtues on here many times. My suppressed Rugers will be very handy in a zombie outbreak. I also love the .45ACP, but I’m smart enough to recognize its shortcomings for this particular topic. All the rifle rounds you mention are great for what they were designed for (If I want to kill an elk at 300 yards I’d love a 30.06). They all share the same issues as the .357 however. Zombies don’t need thousands of ft/lbs of energy. Why have a cartridge that is 4″ long, weighs an ounce or more, and kicks like a mule when all you need to do is penetrate a skull? You are carrying a bigger, heavier gun with low capacity and slow reloads just to waste a bunch of energy. Anything that needs done can be accomplished with an AR that doesn’t suffer from these issues.
I love the idea of simplifying cartridge selection. I too like a pistol and carbine in the same caliber. I just choose a combo that is much better suited to zombies. If we are being swarmed, and we both have our preferred loadouts, who would fare better? Assuming we have the same skill level(which you have not yet proven) my Glock 17 and Lone Wolf G9 would serve me much better than your levergun and schofield. There is no argument to be made in your favor. Facts are facts.
wheelgunner on 20 Aug 2012 at 4:37 pm #
I’m actually not arguing for or against either loadout. On paper, I like yours better. More rounds, more shots per, easier in theory to find, lighter.
But, my training is not with those guns, and I have had other things besides zombies to purchase for when I have money to blow. I have things that I can use for it, easily, and I have guns I can acquire ammo for, overkill or not.
wheelgunner on 20 Aug 2012 at 9:42 pm #
So, at room distance, would a Taurus Judge be a good call? As a backup or whatever.
McLuvin on 20 Aug 2012 at 11:53 pm #
It would do the job, but no better than most and worse than some. The idea of carrying such a limited gun seems foolish if there are better choices.
zombiekiller1318 on 21 Aug 2012 at 3:49 pm #
Comment as far as the pistol grip vs regular shutgun stock….Blackhawk Knoxx stock. Best of both worlds, you get the manuverabilty of a pistol grip and maintain accuracy as it still has a shoulder stock. That’s what I’m getting for my 870.
As for pistols, if there were actually a zombie disaster I would not nessessarily want a 1911, I love 1911′s but 8 rounds vs. 17 in a 9mm or 15+1 in my glock 22 is far better. Even if you’re an expert reloader it wont serve that great in a “horde” attack situation. But then again most things wouldn’t…just f’ing run.
Taurus Judge=piece of shit paper weight. I’d rather throw rocks at them…but in my opinion…I personally think all Taurus guns are pieces of shit…they’re worthless. Buy a real gun, glock is the best in these end of times situations as they’ll shoot in any circumstance, take a beating, rain, mud, run it over…whatever…it’ll still fire.
wheelgunner on 21 Aug 2012 at 9:15 pm #
@zmbiekiller-Just take out my sights, and we won’t compare Taurus to a crap Glock.
wheelgunner on 21 Aug 2012 at 9:16 pm #
I meant stay out of my sights. My woman typed wrong.
Castle83 on 21 Aug 2012 at 10:32 pm #
Hey wheel, no need to bash glocks just cause someone’s an idiot :)
wheelgunner on 22 Aug 2012 at 2:55 am #
Agreed. But I just got out of an apparent fight with McLuvin, and was feeling feisty. Ha.
I hate to admit it, but I have looked at a Glock a few times. The ability to survive crap that I wouldn’t be able to even find it afterward just doesn’t appeal to me the way a good revolver grip fits in my hand. Point taken.
wheelgunner on 22 Aug 2012 at 2:58 am #
I ran across some Blackhawk pistol grip/stock combinations at a store in town, got me thinking on whether or not they were worth the buy. I think the most expensive one is around a hundred bucks, and they had a punch knife and a laser/light combo on a barrel mount for fifty or sixty bucks. Opinions?
McLuvin on 22 Aug 2012 at 8:04 am #
By “punch knife” do you mean bayonet? Either way stabbing a zombie should be avoided at all costs. First of all, you need to get too close. Secondly, a bayonet thrust is a very inefficient movement. It throws your whole body off balance which could be very dangerous if you fail to kill your target or if there are multiple zombies. Lastly, the danger of getting your blade stuck is too great. In a fast paced fight, getting your blade stuck could get you killed. Best case, you lose a couple vital seconds wrenching it free. Worst case, you lose your weapon because you can’t get it free.
A laser/light on your gun could be a life saver in certain situations. Once the grid goes down, every building interior is going to be like midnight. A good flashlight would be worth it’s weight in gold(as long as your battery supply lasts). The laser can be very handy in close quarters, low light fighting. Being able to aim precisely without having your gun in the perfect position is nice.
wheelgunner on 22 Aug 2012 at 8:42 am #
It’s not a bayonet. It’s a push knife, or push dagger. When gripped, the blade extends between your middle and ring finger, with the handle seated in the palm. You use it by essentially punching your opponent with it. It’s like a miniscule katar from the west.
McLuvin on 22 Aug 2012 at 10:04 am #
I thought you were saying the laser/light and knife were all one unit. Sorry, i misunderstood.
If it was just a spike it would be better. The blade would still have the tendency to get stuck in the skull(assuming you could penetrate the skull at all). It also requires you to get really close which has obvious drawbacks.
specially equipped guardsman on 22 Aug 2012 at 11:15 am #
@Mclovin-” a bayonet thrust is a very inefficient movement. It throws your whole body off balance which could be very dangerous if you fail to kill your target or if there are multiple zombies.”
Not if you’re doing it right. bayonet drills may be a dying form but at one point the Military had it down to science.
McLuvin on 22 Aug 2012 at 11:30 am #
Just because the military taught it doesn’t mean they conquered physics. If you thrust an 8lb rifle with any force, it throws your balance off. This causes subsequent attacks to be much slower.
The military also wasn’t fighting an enemy that could only be killed with brain trauma. Thrusting a bayonet at a moving head would result in many missed attacks thus getting you eaten if there are multiple zombies.
wheelgunner on 22 Aug 2012 at 1:03 pm #
Ho check? Worked wonders in Halo. I like bayonets, personally. Wish I had more of them.
Angryvikingman on 22 Aug 2012 at 4:56 pm #
Bayonets can be helpful, you just have to have the right kind thats the right length. The mil issued ones are CRAP.
wheelgunner on 22 Aug 2012 at 5:05 pm #
Mosin Nagant bayonets are scary. I’d use one at least once to give it a try. They penetrate stupid effectively.
specially equipped guardsman on 22 Aug 2012 at 10:06 pm #
@Mclovin- Now clearly, close combat of any kind against zombies should be our last resort, and I don’t want to start a pissing match but I’d like to counter your theoretical physics with empirical historical fact. Unless you’re saying between 1746 and 1918 EVERY solider in the world almost feel over EVERY time they made a bayonet thrust. I’m not be the worlds greatest Martial artist or gymnast and I manged to get through the bayonet assault course at Ft. Benning without stabbing myself once.
McLuvin on 22 Aug 2012 at 10:29 pm #
There’s a big difference between falling over and being thrown off balance. What I’m saying is it would be slow because thrusting 8lbs and then stopping the momentum of that thrust if you miss takes time. assuming you do stick a zombie in the face, now you have to yank the bayonet out and prepare to attack again. It would be a slow, tiring way to face a group of zombies.
specially equipped guardsman on 23 Aug 2012 at 2:44 am #
Yes, and your option in that dire circumstance* is?
*Presumably if were going hand to hand at all we’re out of ammo and can’t fall back.
McLuvin on 23 Aug 2012 at 8:05 am #
I’ve mentioned many times on here that I prefer an impact weapon. Specifically an axe handle. It’s lightweight yet durable and capable of devastating power.
Angryvikingman on 23 Aug 2012 at 8:33 am #
If you want an impact weapon, better put some weight on that axe handle. Cast a pewter ball on the end or something. Just 1lb would make it a truly devastating weapon. Yes, an axe handle is good for whipping some ass, but that little bit of weight really makes it deadly with less strokes, and power.
McLuvin on 23 Aug 2012 at 9:23 am #
That’s not a bad idea Viking. Maybe wrap the end in wire or something. An extra couple ounces at the end could increase impact force by quite a bit.
wheelgunner on 23 Aug 2012 at 1:57 pm #
Just watch yourself man. There is a running joke among my friends about hold easy I make it look to break an ax handle. I’d at least leave the head on.
McLuvin on 23 Aug 2012 at 6:18 pm #
The head turns a good bludgeon into an unwieldy chopper. An axe is just as slow as a bayonet.
I am aware that an axe handle can break over time, but that’s with continuous use on wood. With no head and only hitting zombies it should last a long time.
wheelgunner on 23 Aug 2012 at 6:29 pm #
I meant my rep is as a one hit wonder. And I resent that an ax is slow. A good battle ax at least. Felling axes do tend to be shit these days. No balance, no edge, soft steel. Makes me sad.
McLuvin on 24 Aug 2012 at 10:02 am #
Of course I’m referring to normal utilitarian axes. Most people have no access to real battle axes, but most of us could procure a camp/fire axe.
As for battle axes not being slow, history does not agree with you. Compared to the sword, the axe has always been considered a slow weapon. It’s extra weight means it is slow to stop and reverse your swing for a second blow. I know when you play with yours in the back yard it seams really fast, but it’s not.
As far as breaking axe handles goes, do an experiment. Take a new axe handle and continuously smash melons and coconuts until it breaks. I think you will be surprised how long it lasts. As I said before, the abuse is much less when it doesn’t have the extra momentum of the axe head and you are not hitting solid wood.
wheelgunner on 24 Aug 2012 at 4:50 pm #
What about bone? It’s harder than a melon.
That’s not slow, that would be more unwieldy. That would be a usage issue more than a speed one.
McLuvin on 24 Aug 2012 at 5:40 pm #
That’s why I said coconuts as well as melons. A skull is hard, but not like a solid hardwood tree.
Docwade on 28 Aug 2012 at 5:54 pm #
You gentlemen sure do talk a lot about “wood”.
McLuvin on 28 Aug 2012 at 8:47 pm #
I’m a wood lover from way back.
wheelgunner on 28 Aug 2012 at 10:01 pm #
And who are you to take notice?
Docwade on 02 Sep 2012 at 7:46 am #
I’m the observant one.
wheelgunner on 02 Sep 2012 at 6:20 pm #
Does that make me the blundering fool?
Docwade on 04 Sep 2012 at 9:34 pm #
McLuvin’s the baiter…a ‘master’ if you will.
P Cheng on 19 Sep 2012 at 8:06 pm #
Oh wow, this conversation has really devolved. I was going to ask if anyone knew anything about the SPAS-12 (I think you can get one in the US now, but I ain’t sure. I also like the way the Striker looks, but I’m aware that it’s near impossible to get one.
I think we’re ignoring the basic reasons someone would use a shotgun: less need for aim, so novice gunmen can use it easier than rifles, you just aim for the center of mass and you’re probably going to be okay. Of course there are downsides, but the main reasons someone would use a shotgun is usually associated with power and ease of use.
McLuvin on 19 Sep 2012 at 9:31 pm #
Cheng- You can find a Spas at a local gun show every once in a while. They aren’t too hard to find. They are pretty terrible though. Way too heavy and no advantage over a cheaper, lighter alternative.
wheelgunner on 19 Sep 2012 at 9:49 pm #
You STILL HAVE TO AIM a shotgun. I have a buddy who thinks like that. I’ve personally seen him miss an armadillo at three feet. That’s a target the average size of a major league football. That’s stationary. And stupid. At three feet.
Appalled, I took him to an outdoor range the net day. He proceeded to hip fire a full load of buckshot hip firing. Missed the entire backstop. When we walked up to investigate, the limb he had shot in two fell on him. Honestly thought he was aiming in the right place.
Given a scoped rifle, I’ve seen him stack shots at a hundred yards. It’s all about how he viewed the weapon.
Can’t say anything much about a Spas. I run doubles and pumps, but I’ve seen them around, and agree with them being heavy.
P Cheng on 19 Sep 2012 at 11:32 pm #
As far as close combat versus small arms, again, it would depend largely on the situation and zed behavior. If they were the standard, “Night of the Living Dead” or “The Walking Dead” kind, I’d prefer close combat for a small group and guns for larger groups away from camp or whatever base is, but I’d still prefer to conserve ammo. If they were more “Resident Evil”, I would definitely be trying to keep as much distance as possible. In general though, I’m more confident in my abilities in martial arts than I am in my rather limited marksmanship. Also, I know I’d get paranoid about wasting bullets.
I’ve thought about using a decent tomahawk as a tool/backup melee weapon. I do like this Cold Steel “trench hawk” (http://www.coldsteel.com/trench-hawk.html) and I highly recommend it, although the axe blade is on the short side, I think the replacement handles are a real plus. Swords are generally more agile than axes are in battle, but they require more maintenance and usually more skill and practice. Since my particular style of combat focuses on agility and skill, blunt or heavy weapons would not be ideal since they tire me out faster than bladed weapons would. I prefer to land many crippling blows in a short amount of time before a relatively shallow finishing blow, rather than one large concentrated finishing strike at a vital point. This strategy keeps me a moving target and affords me a bit more reaction time which I think is key especially when fighting multiple targets.
Also, blunt instruments tend to contribute more readily to stress-related bone injuries and fractures by the users if you’re not used to that kinda thing. And blisters, although I imagine that McLuvin’s already got a few blisters on his hands, I know how hard baiting can be sometimes.
P Cheng on 19 Sep 2012 at 11:38 pm #
Ah, I see. I’ve just heard a lot about the Saiga and wondered if there was anything else that decently rivaled it in the combat shotgun department. And yes, wheelgunner, I’m aware that you have to aim, which I mentioned in that earlier post, “at the center of mass”. I’m aware that the aiming technique is somewhat different though, I just meant that it’s probably going to be easier to aim at something’s torso (a generally larger and sometimes more exposed target) than to aim at something’s head.
TEOATTC on 20 Sep 2012 at 12:14 am #
What about the Kel-Tec KSG 14+1? Looked cool in the videos, don’t know about durability, reliability, but it was quite a few rounds coming out of that shotgun. Total length i believe was 26″. Maybe small enough to use as backup. Twice the rounds of my Mossberg and almost 10″ shorter.
McLuvin on 20 Sep 2012 at 6:45 am #
The KSG could be a decent shotgun. Of course that’s only if it were made by a different company. As it is, Keltec can’t make any guns fast enough to actually get any to market. That results in crazy high prices. They also have a history of flimsiness. Reports have generally agreed that it feels cheap.
wheelgunner on 20 Sep 2012 at 8:09 am #
I personally don’t like the look of them. I’ve never handled one, but I know how heavy/clunky all those extra shots up front make it look to me. And, to be clear, you do not have 14+1 rounds. You have 7+7+1 rounds, as you still have to switch over manually from one tube to the other.
TEOATTC on 20 Sep 2012 at 9:13 am #
Kel-Tec does look cheap…a guy I know sells them. I,ve fired a 9mm, .380, and a rifle I believe was a 9mm that folds over on itself. They worked ok, but I couldn’t get over how ugly they were, especially the rifle. Not that a gun can’t be sexy and a piece of shit, but damn it looked crappy. He went on and on about how reliable they were but in the end, I spent a little more money and went with a s@w .45.
14+1=15 7+7+1=15 a technicality easily solved with the flip of a switch. If I don’t have to stop and reload to me its a 14+1. Maybe they should put double barrels on it, then we can argue over it being two 6+1 side by side, or a 14 shot double barrel etc…
Angryvikingman on 20 Sep 2012 at 2:20 pm #
IF you don’t want to switch tubes, and still want a pump gun, then look up the UTS-15.
http://youtu.be/fnyRnjI7OiA
14+1 and no tube switching. A buddy of mine has one. I’ll see if I can grab it for a video. Hes kinda weird about actually shooting his guns.
McLuvin on 20 Sep 2012 at 6:28 pm #
Why would anyone choose a pump nowadays? There are so many good semis on the market. If you re on a budget, get the 930. If you want the best, get a Benelli. If capacity is king with you, get a Saiga.
Angryvikingman on 21 Sep 2012 at 7:14 am #
As I’ve said before, I’ve seen several different semis have horrible problems in rain and sand. They might as well have been single shots. These are well cared for competition guns. Imagine if its been a month since you’ve properly cleaned your gun, and you’ve been using it on an almost daily basis. Probably best to go with a Saiga for that, the loose tolerances allow for more neglect and abuse and the weapon can still function, and its hi-cap.
McLuvin on 21 Sep 2012 at 7:37 pm #
The saiga is just about the most finicky auto out there. A good 930/11-87/M1 will run just fine dirty. I clean my Benelli once every few years and it never fails to run. If a few malfunctions scare you off you won’t ever buy any guns. I’ve seen 870s and 500s break parts mid match and screw up, but I still know they are reliable guns.
3-15 INF on 02 Oct 2012 at 11:43 am #
My 930SPX has run awesome and i would trust it with my life.
I’m deploying at the end of the month with the 101st, and I’m taking the new M26 MASS. Takes Saiga mags, has a 7″ barrel (spreads really well in a room, is pump action, and shorter than an MP5 in the stand alone form. I can take the stock off of it and put it under the barrel of my M4. I think its the best choice for those who want a rifle AND a shotgun on them at the same time.
specially equipped guardsman on 03 Oct 2012 at 10:20 pm #
@3-15 How do you like the M26s ergonomics? it looks a little awkward.
3-15 INF on 05 Oct 2012 at 12:21 pm #
in the stand alone its great- not so much under the m4, but better than carrying a whole other gun
Docwade on 14 Oct 2012 at 10:09 pm #
I love the saiga, but it is finicky. Also, storing a loaded magazine is ok, but there have been reports of rounds not clambering if the mag is left in the shotgun with the bolt closed – causes the first shell to get out of round.
3-15 INF on 02 Nov 2012 at 2:00 pm #
Shot the new M26 at the range last week, had some opinions:
Pros-
1. 7″ barrel makes the weapon featherweight (3.5 lbs)
2. Points easily due to short, 2 ft length
3. easy to carry around
4. FAST to shoot, unloaded 5 round mag in 1 1/2 seconds
5. Short barrel provides a soccer ball spread at 5 meters, and beach ball spread at 10 meters- literally don’t have to aim, cant miss at 15 Meters
6. Feeds from Saiga mag, so any of them will do
7. Butt-stock has recoil reducing buffer, so it doesn’t beat you up too bad.
Cons-
1. Really don’t care for mag fed, but allows it to be way shorter than a tube fed gun, with same number of rounds
2. Hard to to reload quickly because you have to rock the mags in
3. Short barrel doesn’t allow any shots at 15= meter range, but makes it great up close
Overall, i think its the best short barreled shotgun out there. I’ll be carrying it in A-stan, under my M4 or as a stand alone, depending on METT-TC, so I’ll let you know how it does.
Jesse on 19 Nov 2012 at 8:17 am #
Saiga is great but not legal everywhere. In VT I am good but say NYC forget it. Kel Tec KSG 15 2 3/4 rounds pump action
Jesse on 19 Nov 2012 at 8:37 am #
One more suggestion
Buy all the tannerite you can and ball bearings. 1 rifle shot equal dead zombies everywhere. Also if you have high ground. Get a long piece of steel with a sharp and gnarly end. Start crushing skulls. Two benefits your saving ammo and your arms will be more jacked than with the shake weight.
James on 19 Nov 2012 at 8:38 am #
One more suggestion
Buy all the tannerite you can and ball bearings. 1 rifle shot equal dead zombies everywhere. Also if you have high ground. Get a long piece of steel with a sharp and gnarly end. Start crushing skulls. Two benefits your saving ammo and your arms will be more jacked than with the shake weight.
Jesse James on 19 Nov 2012 at 8:49 am #
Dig a trench 6 across 12 feet deep around home. Fill with wood and branches cover with tarp. Taunt zombies throw in road flare.
If they are still over running it. Tannerite claymores.
Still coming get on your compound and use shake weight technique
Last resort guns.
Easy for us to do in VT but we live for this stuff.
njmark on 02 Dec 2012 at 7:53 am #
Anyone old enough to remember the chokes that shot oval patterns instead of circular ones…#4 buck at average head height…Hmmmmm
3-15 INF on 28 Dec 2012 at 9:44 am #
haha tannerite- that stuff is basically what they blow us up with in astan. They make it in their back yards.