Will the 22LR save the world?

Author: Angryvikingman
Submitted: 19 Nov 2012
Filed under: Weapons

435 Responses to “Will the 22LR save the world?”

1. HMPlatinum on 19 Nov 2012 at 9:42 pm #

   Punching right through does not a zombie kill.

   There’s no doubt a 22lr will penetrate a coconut, a cow skull, and seems “lethal” at a goodly range, but none of the tests I’ve seen show sufficient damage to incapacitate a zombie. They “may” not pass through and “might” bounce around enough to get the job done. The initial penetration probably won’t produce enough bone-shrapnel to do the job, either.

   But all of that is talking about a single round. Putting multiple shots on target and perforating the brain-housing-group like cheese is an entirely different argument…and something the .22lr certainly is capable of accomplishing.

2. wheelgunner on 20 Nov 2012 at 2:38 am #

   You are still talking about multiple shots on target, perhaps in a highly specific region, and still no certainty of a kill. It makes me uneasy, but I’d be willing to run a trial on it when the time comes. I know too many people that have been shot by them with no serious harm having been dealt to them.

   I prefer a tube fed rifle when I pick one up. I’ve used a bunch of different models of .22 pistols. The Heritage brand are less than $200 after inflation, and are a great by for the money. I like the Walther P22, Taurus revolvers, and have run a few old Hi Standard revolvers that where awesome.

   That said, I have trained enough shooters to recognize the true value, and as a light game/training weapon I try to keep a few on hand when I can. With competent instruction, you can teach a person to hit what they are aiming at with a handful of shells.

3. CompShooter on 20 Nov 2012 at 10:34 pm #

   I have a 40′s era savage tube fed bolt action I still use and super accurate. My ruger 10/22 stainless and composite stock with iron sights has durability from weather vs wood and mag fed vs tube fed . In a few months ill have the sparrow suppressor for my ruger mk 3, which I regurley use to shoot steel targets .375 x 7×9 ” at 50 yds. Would either need a load cell to get real world poundage at set distances using 36gr hp or rn common ammo to determine lethality, or a pig skull . I think 22 ammo might be eaiser to forage since most people might overlook it .

4. Angryvikingman on 21 Nov 2012 at 5:16 am #

   Well, I’ve seen the lethality of a 22LR first hand on more than one occasion. I was 10 feet away from someone who got dropped with a single shot from 50 yards, and a kid I was friends with growing up got killed by a 22LR because of a ricochet. Both head shots. Theres NO doubt in my mind that it can kill with a single shot. I’ve also seen a 22LR take down a 110lb deer with a single shot as well. My friend Adam hunts with a 22LR religiously, and that guy takes several deer a year with his little Marlin tube fed semiauto. Its also effective with other game. I always laugh at people who use 3 inch magnum shotgun loads to kill a turkey when you can get them just as easily with a 22LR and at greater range. I’ve dropped a running turkey at 75 yards with an Ithaca single shot lever action. Had that gun since I was 4. Its what I learned to shoot with and is still my favorite to shoot.

   These are all first hand accounts of the demonstrated lethality of the round. Not something someone heard in a bar, or from their cousin’s friend’s sister’s uncle Ricky Bobby.

   22LR also is so cheap that you can literally afford to buy 5 times as much as most other rounds, and still pay less. I’m sure it will be a highly sought after round post Z-day because of its lethality and ease of suppression.

5. Docwade on 22 Nov 2012 at 9:24 am #

   I like the 22lr, but more than likely inside of 50 yards. If you’re talking suppressed, probably half that. Remember, you’re not going to be firing from a bench rest or tree stand. You will more than likely be kneeling, shooting, and moving.

   You’re turkey shot was a good one, but the accuracy we are really talking about will be more akin to a pons/medulla hit. Off center hits on the skull will likely either track along the inside skirting the brain or not cause enough damage to it to put them down.

   I think it is irresponsible of your friend to hunt deer with a 22. The chances of wounding the animal with a hit off a rib or shoulder blade should be too much for a hunter to accept. Of course, I’ve also seen video of “someone” on his site handing over a pistol to a known intoxicated friend in a line of four shooters and everyone just cutting loose. Soooo, good judgement is not to be expected here. I’m not naming any names….
   Angry.

6. McLuvin on 22 Nov 2012 at 10:07 am #

   I think several of you are talking out of your asses. Anyone who claims the .22 isn’t lethal is a moron. Standard bulk pack HP ammo will most certainly penetrate a skull and disrupt enough tissue to kill. Along the same lines, anyone claiming it could be used out to 4-500 yards is also an idiot. Just because it still has (barely)enough power at those ranges, doesn’t mean it is effective. Between ridiculous bullet drop and excessive wind drift making good hits at that range is virtually impossible.

   Doc was absolutely correct in his statement about shot placement. Only good hits count. I’ve always considered the .22 to be a 100yard cartridge out of a rifle and a 50yard round out of a pistol. I’m not sure why those distances would be halved with a suppressor. The cartridge is not changed in any way by adding the can. Same bullet weight, same velocity, same range. Out of a rifle subsonic ammo would be ideal, but it would merely change holdover at 100yards not effectiveness. I’m not shooting stingers or some other hyper velocity round to begin with so change would be inconsequential.

   Hunting deer with a .22 outside of a survival situation is absolutely unethical. I’m all for hunting, but it should be done in the best way to ensure a quick humane kill.

   Wheelgunner- I know you have carefully crafted a persona of “vintage weapon expert” on this site, but you are just getting stupid. Choosing a Heritage .22 revolver is a terrible idea. Could you possibly pick a slower handgun to shoot and reload? Not to mention the overall poor quality. As for long guns, you like a tube fed gun. That doesn’t even make sense. You pick an action type not a feeding mechanism. Picking a tube fed weapon is just silly. They can’t be loaded as fast and hold fewer rounds than other popular choices. You are now just intentionally picking bad weapons to get attention.

7. CompShooter on 22 Nov 2012 at 10:55 am #

   When I say using a load cell to determine lethality I don’t doubt that it is lethal, just would like to see real world data and physical effects on pig skulls or some such analog at different ranges with the common brick brands . I’ll tell you that Remington (500 pack comes in a green / yellow box ) had the most inconsistent rounds, I had 20 rounds that just went piff and either barely made it out the barrel or I had to use a cleaning rod to remove the projectile. I had no such issues with winchester xpert HV is 36 gr @ 1280 fps advertised and federal value pack 525 rounds is 36 gr @ 1260 fps and says it is 125 ft lbs @ muzzle and 80 ft lbs @ 100 yds . I have some gemtech that is 42 gr @ 1020 fps (subsonic)

8. CompShooter on 22 Nov 2012 at 11:59 am #

   Amendment to post 7. These are advertised on the box , Chrono results I have show similar fps but note that pistol speeds will be less.

9. McLuvin on 22 Nov 2012 at 1:06 pm #

   Remington .22 is notoriously garbage. Those velocities are pretty accurate. Out of a normal handgun those are all subsonic.

10. specially equipped guardsman on 22 Nov 2012 at 4:11 pm #

    I picked up an AR-7 a while ago, but I’ve been deployed and have not had a chance to really try it out. Seems like it would be ideal for a BOB or for the cars truck.

11. Angryvikingman on 22 Nov 2012 at 5:40 pm #

    Yeah, that video of me and my friends shooting, no one in that video had been drinking that morning. The guy with the pistol was an alcoholic, but he knows safe gun handling. Now, saying that, yes, I have used firearms more than once while drinking, but NEVER after a second drink. I have more sense than that. I do however play call of duty and drink.

    Now, as far as shooting accurately under pressure and at distance, yeah, entirely possible. Headshots, not entirely out of the realm of possibility. If they’re shamblers, then it’ll be no problem.

12. McLuvin on 22 Nov 2012 at 10:35 pm #

    If you are talking about 500 yards as “at distance” you have no idea what you are talking about. The .22lr is a mortar at that range. Bullet drop at that distance will be somewhere between 30-40′ depending on your ammo! That’s FEET! Wind drift will be unpredictable and extreme as well. You may be able to get a lucky shot now and again or “walk them in”, but putting consistent, accurate hits on a human head is not in the cards. Look how many shots it took you to hit at 150. The problem grows exponentially as you go from 150-500.
    If I recall, you specifically said your buddy in the video had been drinking and that is why you only gave him a .22. Either way his gun handling was not safe and that reflects poorly on you as the “expert” of the group.

    SEG- The AR-7 has a reputation of being a train wreck. Hopefully you got one that runs. Many don’t. Keep an eye on the front sight. It is a simple piece of plastic in a dovetail. They get knocked out very easily. Sometimes just going in and out of the stock.

13. wheelgunner on 23 Nov 2012 at 1:14 pm #

    McLuvin-Look man, you got to get it out of your head that there is only one true way of doing things. It makes you sound like you have a screw too lose or too tight somewhere.

    As for tube fed, let me see. Leverguns, shotguns, boltguns, and autos all have models that run off tube magazines. I tend to like models that run off of a tube. Screw up less on me. Heritage revolvers are cheap, and can break, but I have shot worse at higher prices. At least I didn’t sight a Hi Point for goodness sake. No complaints about Hi Standard?

14. Docwade on 23 Nov 2012 at 10:04 pm #

    I think most of use have either owned as a kid or at least handled a tube fed 22lr. Mine was a Marlin 60 with a god awful early tapco. The sheer number of of little springs and moving parts in that thing was amazing. It would be so gummed up and gritty after around 300 rounds. It pales in comparison to my 10/22. It was used and had a worn out extractor. A quick swap and it has just ran and ran. Fewer parts, larger magazines, and faster reloads – the benefits are quite clear over tube feds.

    Now, I own an iac lever 12 gauge. It’s very cool in a mechanical way, but there’s a reason it was superseded by the pump action and subsequently by the tube fed auto loader and then by the box fed.

    On the other hand, the style of shooting will be more forgiving to slower firearms when the zombies come.

15. McLuvin on 24 Nov 2012 at 1:04 am #

    If you’ve never had a tube fed gun jam up on you you’ve never put many rounds through one. They are notorious for gumming up. They are also a pain in the ass to clean. Many models need to be completely disassembled to clean the tube and feed mechanism. In a zombie situation downtime can kill you. A gun that has limited capacity and slow reloads is an automatic bad choice. It matters little if you prefer one type over another. Some are just clearly superior.

    Hi-standard target pistols were top notch. They may be too tight for a good zombie gun, but they were excellent bullseye guns. Their revolvers on the other hand were the picture of mediocrity. Cheap fit and finish paired with a rough action doesn’t impress me. If you insist on a .22 revolver(which is a relatively useless class of handgun), get a S&W 18.

16. wheelgunner on 24 Nov 2012 at 1:23 pm #

    My father has a Remington automatic tube fed that I have cleaned once in the past thirty years. My Marlin has never given me a hiccup that recycling hasn’t fixed. And I’ve run thousands and thousands of rounds through it. Anything that doesn’t run to that kind of standard, I trade off until I find something else that does.

    As far as magazine capacity, no, I can’t argue numbers with you. Removable magazines hold more, end of story. The guns that I find that I like the feel of and the ones that run well for me do not always come with removable magazines. One of the major problems with removables is that they screw up the balance and carry positions that I prefer, as well as hanging off and getting hung up on everything in the kinds of places I carry them. You can’t argue that an M4 carries or balances the same way that a 94 Winchester does. I trade off shots for feel and confidence in my firearm.

    I’m not trying to blanket term crap. Given the chance, I would love to have a medium length rifle with flip up sights that are fully adjustable with a detachable scope, with removable high capacity magazines, ambidextrous controls, a bayonet and threaded barrel with accessories, probably with a wood stock with picatinny rails, in either a bolt or automatic, honestly not sure which. Leaning towards bolt in general, but autos have they’re own perks. Preferably in a largish caliber, because I tend to be a knockdown addict. But, it’s just not happening. Limited magazine capacity is also a plus when budgets deny you access to large volumes of ammunition.

17. wheelgunner on 24 Nov 2012 at 1:51 pm #

    One of the reasons that I like .22 revolvers is that the revolver is what is familiar to me. Automatics do not fit my hand the same way because the grips are also the magazine wells. This, in turn, effects the way I shoot with one.

    As leery as I am over the .22 lr, I still plan to outfit at least two per five man group that I have, for all of the reasons listed above, mostly against my own arguments.

    For the record, you would have to pay me good money to use a lot of the guns that have been thrown up as examples of my bad decision making skills. I despise lever action shotguns and revolving rifles. I traded in my Heritage pistols for a .357 at the first chance that I got. I will generally take the best gun available to me for what I intend to do, but that does not always mean that my sole plan is to have the best weapon for fighting zombies and zombie hordes. Thus, guns that McLuvin will forever rant hatreds and minor obscenities at. I have some preferences for things, such as melee tools, because of a skill set I earned. I honestly do not believe that most people should do it, and most of the people that do do it disgust me at how badly they screw it up. A lot of stuff that I bring up is for feedback or curiosity, and I will admit to occasionally not telling you every secret opinion I have or what all I own that isn’t “vintage”. Got to have a few surprises.

18. Docwade on 25 Nov 2012 at 11:30 pm #

    I like a good solid 10/22 and a mark II pistol in stainless. I used to have a handful of slab sided competition models for whatever reason, but now I’m down to one…I think, and one four inch bull barrel. Very solid handguns.

19. McLuvin on 26 Nov 2012 at 12:11 am #

    Agreed. The Ruger MKII is the best .22 pistol extant. Solid, reliable, accurate, and you can customize it however you like.

    The 10/22 is the AR of the rimfire world. You can make it exactly what you want it to be(unless you prefer a slower, lower capacity, worse feeding system). They are very accurate and reliable as well.

20. CompShooter on 26 Nov 2012 at 12:31 am #

    My first pistol was a mk 2,- 4″ tapered barrel. The most recent is a mk 3 – 4″ suppressor ready ( suppressor to follow) but if you question, the capability of 22 LR rimfire, then there is 22 mag or maybe 17 HMR

21. wheelgunner on 26 Nov 2012 at 2:11 am #

    I like the .17 HMR. Have heard nothing but good things on it, and have seen good results with it. Put some thought into getting a revolver chambered in it.

22. wheelgunner on 26 Nov 2012 at 2:19 am #

    My preferences to have the advantage to being a complete firearm strait out of the box. No accessories required, no magazines to struggle with, no unnecessary additions to get in the way of me shooting something, or to force me into sinking even more money into my investment.

23. Docwade on 26 Nov 2012 at 4:19 pm #

    That’s not exactly an open minded view of firearms in general.

24. Docwade on 26 Nov 2012 at 7:04 pm #

    Even in a revolver, I like a good action job. That’s more money to improve my investment. Even in. Ruger mkII, a trigger job makes one hell of an improvement.

25. McLuvin on 26 Nov 2012 at 9:30 pm #

    I’ve given up on trying to teach wheelgunner about reality.

    Now I want to specify that I haven’t given up bitching and moaning about his ignorance.

26. Docwade on 27 Nov 2012 at 4:39 pm #

    Yay! Bitching and moaning!

27. Castle83 on 27 Nov 2012 at 8:51 pm #

    I’m a firm believer in semi-autos vs revolvers don’t get me wrong. But there’s no reason to be a dick to the guy because of his preference. I’ll take a shooter who is conforable with his equipment over someone who can’t hit shit with a logically superior weapon any day. The name of the game is accuracy isn’t it? Whatever the hell happened to polite discourse?

28. McLuvin on 27 Nov 2012 at 9:32 pm #

    He is intentionally making bad choices just to start shit. He said as much in post 17.

    I have nothing against revolvers and can shoot them better than most can shoot autos, but they are not the best choice in the scenario this site is made for. In addition, Wheelgunner is not talking about good, modern, DA revolvers. He keeps talking about antiquated, slow, SA revolvers. They are slower to shoot and generally much slower to reload. They also shoot cartridges that are bigger, heavier, and harder to buy in bulk.

29. Semper Cogitant on 27 Nov 2012 at 9:56 pm #

    I worked in an ER in downtown LA for about 8 years and have seen quite a few folks shot with the good old .22, and I own one myself now. I would certainly want to keep one handy during any SHTF scenario, especially ours.

    However I wouldn’t count on it as a primary weapon against zombies, especially at any longer range. For a kill we need to penetrate the skull and that just doesn’t happen reliably. Sometimes even at close range the bullet just tracks around the skull, it can even happen when the barrel is in contact with the head.

    If you spend enough money you can get incredibly accurate .22s, but using scavenged ammo in a rugged, affordable rifle you are not going to be doing accurate long range shooting. It can certainly be lethal to half a mile, but deliberately lethal to a zombie is more like fifty yards, and doing it quickly and under stress is more like 25 yards.

    A .22 would still be a useful though, even indispensable. Nothing is better for small game and ammo is abundant and light weight. You can make an effective suppressor from an oil filter and some duct tape. Scavenging would likely turn up more .22 rifles and pistols than anyone could possibly need.

30. wheelgunner on 28 Nov 2012 at 12:15 am #

    Actually, I like modern double actions. Almost half of my pistols are double action with swing out cylinders. I just prefer to to shoot them single action. They also aren’t as safe to quick draw. I prefer top breaks when I can get them, because I hate slow reloads just as much as McLuvin obviously does. Double action has too much creep for my taste, being trained as a single action shooter. There is no one in my area to take a weapon to to get anything other that broken parts lazily replaced, which takes out a few upgrades that would be kind of neat to have. At lest I don’t talk about how awesome a 1851 Colt Navy is on here all that often. Excellent accuracy, but so slow to reload it hurts. I suppose it’s all in how you measure speed. And how you accessorize them. You ever tried to get enough of the right things to run a black powder without it misfiring or you dieing of old age before you get a second loading into it?

    I’m also not making “bad choices to start shit”. I just don’t always jump on the band wagon to make sure a thing is looked at from different angles. There are other people in different conditions than us on this site, and they need to here some shit other than Go Highest Capacity Expensive Stuffs Yay! Just like how I’m reasonably sure that your preferences aren’t the only weapons in your arsenal, mine aren’t the only tools in mine. I may post more of them, but it would appear that I have been damned for making choices that others around here don’t understand, or care about the reasons for their purchase.

    And I do have a serious question for yall. If I sight a single, specific thing, why do I keep getting jumped on in a general categories kind of way? And why do my experiences with a particular item pale beneath your experience with them? Who says there will not be large, zombie animals that a buffalo gun wouldn’t be perfect for? If you are going to cover contingencies, why not cover the blood hell out of them?

31. Angryvikingman on 28 Nov 2012 at 8:30 am #

    The zombie animal thing:
    Generally, things like that don’t jump species because of the genetic difference.

    Specifics covered with generalities:
    I generally don’t do that. I try and give benefit of the doubt, because I know Bob Munden could headshot 6 zombies in under 2 seconds with a revolver before I got the safety off my automatic. That being said, Yes, revolvers can cowboy guns can run super freaking fast, but for someone just picking up a gun for the first time, an automatic is going to be the best bet.

32. wheelgunner on 28 Nov 2012 at 12:25 pm #

    I usually give them a choice between a 9mm and a .38 special, with a stressing on a .22lr to learn what the heck they are doing.

    Talking about things you’ve seen, I’ve seen one of those paid shooters fire 18 rounds out of a .357 mag in something like 3 seconds, With successful hits on multiple targets.

33. McLuvin on 28 Nov 2012 at 7:04 pm #

    No, you haven’t.

34. Docwade on 28 Nov 2012 at 7:39 pm #

    I’ve seen a monkey f*** a football, but I ain’t never seen no paid shooter run eighteen 357 rounds rounds out of a revolver in 3 sec.

35. wheelgunner on 28 Nov 2012 at 9:28 pm #

    My bad. I miss remembered. It was only twelve.

    The weekend belonged, however, to Jerry Miculek. Jerry is a speed shooter and competition shooting instructor. He is known as the fastest revolver shooter in the world. He holds numerous records including the record he established in 1999 by firing six shots, reloading and firing six shots from a S & W Model 625 in a astounding time of 2.99 seconds. Jerry is also a five time USPSA 3-Gun Nation Championship, three time Masters International Long Gun Champion, three time USPSA National Revolver champion and two time IPSC World Revolver Champion.–Shooting USA, Impossible Shots.

36. wheelgunner on 28 Nov 2012 at 9:30 pm #

    Also,

    Eight shots in 1 second
    Six shots-reload-six shots in 2.99 seconds
    Six shots, two on each of three targets, in 1 second
    Sixty shots out of ten revolvers in 17.2 seconds
    Five shots in 57 hundredths of a second.

    And, here is the link.

    http://www.bang-inc.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=3

    Questions? Comments? Discredits?

37. Docwade on 28 Nov 2012 at 9:44 pm #

    Anybody who shoots any competition or has watched pretty much any show with a gun theme knows who Jerry is. Although, I lost some fondness for him after he appeared on sons of guns a few times.

38. wheelgunner on 28 Nov 2012 at 9:44 pm #

    Here are a couple of vids.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLk1v5bSFPw

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsLx5ISBXw4

39. Docwade on 28 Nov 2012 at 9:47 pm #

    P.S. Miculek shoots a highly modified 625…you won’t get HIS gun out of even the S&W performance center box.

    P.P.S. try to do any of his records with a Heritage 22lr revolver with factory trigger…careful you don’t sprain your finger.

40. wheelgunner on 28 Nov 2012 at 9:52 pm #

    I do not recall either of those things being what I was commenting on, Doc.

    I’m really getting tired of yall being on my case about what can be done, and then blow it off, or redirect into a you can’t do that. It’s childish, and I expect better of you.

41. McLuvin on 28 Nov 2012 at 10:58 pm #

    Don’t.

42. wheelgunner on 28 Nov 2012 at 11:46 pm #

    At least you can admit that you and your b.s. are one of the causes of the site seeming to tank. Even when you get what you want, you shit on it dude.

43. McLuvin on 29 Nov 2012 at 2:40 pm #

    I’m pretty sure this site tanked due to long periods of nothing being posted. I just try to inject some actual knowledge into things.

44. Angryvikingman on 29 Nov 2012 at 6:39 pm #

    First of all, the site didn’t tank. Its always had about the same number of regular posters. They’ve just changed. Second, with a $0 advertising budget, the site cant really get anywhere. Third, Its NOT MY SITE, I just write for it. Yes, about one article per month, but its better than nothing, and as I’ve said, I haven’t recieved any emails with actual articles, only vague ideas. Fourth, I don’t get paid to do this, the site admin hasn’t responded to ANY of my emails in like 6+months. I’d really like to revamp the site, and do some other things, but like I’ve said, its not my site and I don’t have any priveledges other than posting articles, so I can’t change the layout.
    Fifth, quit bitching and contribute. Sixth, if you take the time, money, and energy to train, you can run a sixgun just about as fast as a semi auto. Seventh, cowboy action guns are effective in the hands of a trained shooter in a defend in place scenario, and still better than a sharp stick any other time. With that being said, Wheelgunner has provided ample evidence to support his argument. (Given the fact that its Ole Jerry shooting, but if you’re half as fast as he is, thats still damn fast.)

45. McLuvin on 29 Nov 2012 at 7:43 pm #

    First off, I wasn’t throwing any blame at you angry. I was just stating that the sites failure has nothing to do with my posts and everything to do with no activity.

    Secondly, what evidence has Wheelgunner provided to support his claims? He said he saw a professional shooter fire 18 shots of .357 in 3 seconds with hits on multiple targets. In fact he saw a shooter fire 12 shots from a .45 in 3 seconds on a single target. That is just about as wrong as you can be. It also does nothing to substantiate his claims that low capacity, slow reloading weapons are good choices. The 625 is the fastest revolver available and Jerry Miculek is the best revolver shooter who ever lived, yet he would still choose a semi-automatic for zombies. A DA revolver is a very formidable weapon when used by a skilled shooter, but it has too many disadvantages in a horde scenario. What’s worse is that Wheelgunner doesn’t normally advocate a DA revolver. He talks about using a SA top break replica. He has already admitted to picking oddball guns just to start conversations on here(post 17). If that’s his plan, he shouldn’t get upset when someone calls him out on a poor choice.

46. Docwade on 01 Dec 2012 at 10:53 am #

    Post 40 wheelgunner
    I was merely commenting that you said before that you don’t want to invest any Additional money in a gun and that it should be “complete” right out of the box, post 22.
    JM’s 625 is not something you can buy out of a box. You can get one with his initials on it, but it’s not the modified gun he shoots. Lots a cash in that revolver.

47. Docwade on 01 Dec 2012 at 11:03 am #

    Angry,
    Post a pic of you and your sr9tc. I think ur pulling our leg.

48. wheelgunner on 01 Dec 2012 at 1:30 pm #

    For the love of God. I DON’T WANT HIS GODD#$% GUN. I WAS POINTING OUT SOMETHING I SAW A GUY DO WITH A MOTHERF^&*(%$G REVOLVER. Quit giving me shit and read what the HELL I say.

49. Docwade on 01 Dec 2012 at 1:38 pm #

    U first.

50. Docwade on 01 Dec 2012 at 1:47 pm #

    I feel like Hannibal lecter just talked multiple migs into swallowing his own tongue

51. Spern on 01 Dec 2012 at 3:39 pm #

    Ignoring the side discussion about revolvers vs. autos, I think I’ll try to bring the conversation back to the 22LR. I think it would be a question of how much damage does it take to the brain to put down a zombie? In a living person a small hole through the brain CAN be lethal, but can also be “relatively” harmless. Angryvikingman pointed out in one of his first posts that he has witnessed at least two deaths of humans on account of this round. But with a zombie we are talking about already dead beings. Will a small hole, or even a moderate one caused by the addition of bone shards or a tumbling bullet, be enough to put down the undead? Or will it take most of the brain matter being reduced to pulp? If the latter, it will take a heavier slower bullet or multiple hits. At that point 22LR is probably not such a great choice because even though multiple shots to the head is possible, even at high speeds and high pressure, it simply doesn’t make sense to waste that extra time firing more than one shot to kill the same target. However, not being a professional armorer, I might be completely off base. Thoughts?

52. Angryvikingman on 01 Dec 2012 at 7:38 pm #

    My SR9TC? OK…

    http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l586/angryvikingman/MeandFAL_SR9TC.jpg

    http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l586/angryvikingman/meandSR9TC.jpg

    http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l586/angryvikingman/mySR9TC2.jpg

    There’s 2 of me holding it and 1 in the case. Here’s a video of me shooting it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7SlMvRfQrU

    Good Enough?

53. Docwade on 01 Dec 2012 at 8:09 pm #

    Nah, could be anybody’s, years ago. I can’t take for face value the old pics of a former Walther p380 owner! How many rounds did you say you shot through your p22?

54. Docwade on 01 Dec 2012 at 8:10 pm #

    I was never a big fan of the delayed roller lock system of HK and it’s variants. Ok for 9mm and 40, too violent for follow up shots in 308.

55. McLuvin on 01 Dec 2012 at 9:11 pm #

    Plus for the money they bring you could buy several good guns.

56. Angryvikingman on 01 Dec 2012 at 9:24 pm #

    Ok, so 3 pics and a video weren’t enough? Lol. As for my P22, over 20,000 rounds and counting. Needs a good cleaning.

57. Angryvikingman on 01 Dec 2012 at 9:28 pm #

    As for the roller blow back system, watch me shooting that HK. You see it going all over the place? You can’t even tell its recoiling. Of course I know how to shoot a big boy rifle standing offhand.

58. Docwade on 01 Dec 2012 at 10:24 pm #

    Whatever you say boss. Trying to say that ANY 308 doesn’t show recoil is just fantasy land disco. I can see it relative to that nice tree line in the back ground. Now, if you just let the video run until the end, the last frame tells you just how well you shoot a big boy gun. Leaning back, weight on your back leg, right shoulder kicked back, legs straight as boards.

59. McLuvin on 01 Dec 2012 at 11:27 pm #

    Unless you kept all those shots in the center of the target, that video demonstrates nothing except wasting ammo.

    I’m still interested in people proving their skill. We have so many “experts” on here who like to spout off with opinions, but don’t give any reason to listen to them. I only know of two people on here who have any real skill or knowledge. How about some more of the regulars post up videos and/or pics that prove they know what the hell they are talking about?

60. Angryvikingman on 02 Dec 2012 at 2:03 am #

    Yeah, seems like you and I are the only ones on here who compete in shooting, but that doesn’t mean that someone who doesn’t compete can’t shoot. However, I would like it if more people shared their pictures and videos.

61. Docwade on 02 Dec 2012 at 9:41 am #

    Now, correct me if I’m wrong, because I could be waaaay off base. But I’m not sure McLuvin meant you and he were the ones with real skill.

62. McLuvin on 02 Dec 2012 at 10:08 am #

    Sorry Angry, I was referring to myself and Docwade. I can personally vouch for his shooting abilities and overall knowledge level. The few videos you’ve posted haven’t really shown me much yet. I was also unaware that you compete. I may have just forgotten if you’ve mentioned it previously. What discipline do you shoot? What ranking do you hold?

    As for someone being able to shoot without competing. They very well could be the second coming of Ed McGivern, but there’s no way to be sure unless they test those skills against others. I hear all too often about someone being mil/Leo so they know how to shoot. Or, “I’ve been shooting my whole life”. That doesn’t mean a thing unless you have something to judge against. The vast majority of mil/Leo’s couldn’t shoot their way out of a moist paper bag. Along the same vein, the overwhelming majority of “shooters” that go out and plink in the backyard or punch paper at the local range can’t hold a group at all. They think if they get all shots on paper they are doing well. Competition is the best way of improving and constantly testing your skills.

63. Angryvikingman on 02 Dec 2012 at 11:29 am #

    SOrry Doc, I didn’t know you competed. I shot IDPA, but I’m going to start doing USPSA if I can get my schedule at work changed. USPSA from what I read it just based off of hit % and not timed, unless noted by the course description. IDPA is based of time and hits on target and they add points to time for your score. As for what class I shoot, well, I’ve never shot in a classifier. Any time I’ve ever had time to compete there wasn’t a classifier that weekend. If I had to guess, in USPSA I’d be somewhere in the A/B class Range.

64. Docwade on 02 Dec 2012 at 11:54 am #

    That’s the part I don’t like about uspsa scoring, your percentage is based off the score of the top shooter in your bracket. Sooo, if the top shooter does 80%, that is now the 100% score, and you are then stratified against that standard. Therefore, you don’t know how you did until everyone’s scores are in. Idpa is much, much cleaner and easier scoring.

65. Docwade on 02 Dec 2012 at 12:10 pm #

    Oh, but yes, I compete.
    I learned first like most, backyard paper punching.

    Then enlisted and qualified expert in pistol, rifle, and trained with a mossberg 500 in the middle east. Figured out shooting paper in the backyard doesn’t teach you squat.

    Then got out and started shooting some IDPA and carbine matches and learned the military doesn’t teach you squat about competition accuracy.

    I am expert class in IDPA shooting 9mm Glock. I have plaques and medals too.

66. CompShooter on 02 Dec 2012 at 12:17 pm #

    I shoot CMP 200, 300 and 600 yd currently with a AR 15 (started with a match grade M1) Course of fire is standing freehand no sling , standing to sitting , kneeling and prone. I participate when our club runs those matches. They used to do IPSC but not enough support killed it. They are trying to get IDPA in since the explosion of CPL training here. Steel silouette is still around when they have enough people interested. So I’m not rob leatham or (insert your pick here) personally, IPSC is all about race gun tech and corporate sponsorships blah blah blah its not real world, IDPA is positioned to avoid that crap hopefully and keep the weaponry to carry and duty pistols. I like what I do I hope to expand into more if the club(s) I go to do more but it works for me , if I’m not up to your standards, so be it.

67. McLuvin on 02 Dec 2012 at 12:19 pm #

    Angry- USPSA is most definitely timed. The scoring you are referring to is called Hit Factor. It is how many points you make per second. As Doc stated, IDPA is a much easier and better scoring system. USPSA is so complicated that you have to wait for scores to be run through a computer scoring algorithm before you know any results. I’ve seen this take anywhere from a few hours to a week. Even after the scores come out it is hsrd to know exactly how you did because your official score is a prrcentage of how the top guy did. In IDPA you know immediately where everyone stands. You can easily see how long it took to shoot a stage and how many points down you were.

    You may be surprised how good A&B shooters can be in USPSA.

68. Castle83 on 02 Dec 2012 at 1:05 pm #

    Any recommendations on where to get started first? IDPA? USPCA? Both?

69. CompShooter on 02 Dec 2012 at 1:13 pm #

    IDPA.com
    Look up club affiliations / locations on their map per state you live in

70. McLuvin on 02 Dec 2012 at 1:31 pm #

    What he said^

71. Castle83 on 02 Dec 2012 at 1:43 pm #

    Yes, I saw that. Any preference on organization?

72. CompShooter on 02 Dec 2012 at 2:13 pm #

    not really ,I’d like to do more of both

73. McLuvin on 02 Dec 2012 at 3:41 pm #

    You can get into either with minimum gear. IDPA us pretty basic in general as far as gear goes. In USPSA, you’d want to shoot in production division which limits the gear to realistic levels.

74. Leatherneck on 02 Dec 2012 at 6:40 pm #

    So, unless I’ve shot at targets in an orderly, controlled and completely safe environment, I have no chance in a kill or be killed, chaotic, stress filled situation. I bow to your superiority.

75. Docwade on 02 Dec 2012 at 10:25 pm #

    Who said that?
    But shooting is a perishable skill and as you should well know, requires upkeep. You can’t get house to house street fighting back stateside unless you live in New Orleans.

76. Docwade on 02 Dec 2012 at 10:27 pm #

    You’ve also trained on paper silhouette targets in an orderly, controlled and completely safe environment and you forgot to add at “fixed ranges”.

77. Leatherneck on 02 Dec 2012 at 11:08 pm #

    Yes, I forgot fixed ranges. I was responding to post #60 & 63. He implies you have no real skill or knowledge unless you compete. Don’t get me wrong, I respect competitors. There’s just more to it in a SHTF/WROL situation.

78. McLuvin on 02 Dec 2012 at 11:12 pm #

    Combat has very little to do with skilled shooting. It has much more to do with keeping a cool head under extreme pressure. I’m not saying that isn’t valuable, but when it comes to putting rounds accurately on target an average competition shooter beats an average soldier 10 times out of 10. In the scenario we are discussing, where the enemy doesn’t shoot back, combat experience means little.

79. Leatherneck on 02 Dec 2012 at 11:35 pm #

    So an undead hoard, coming to eat your face, wouldn’t create extreme pressure. I’m just saying, in a competition, your worried about points. In the scenario being discussed, a mistake costs lives. That’s a completely different type of stress and a lot of people can’t handle it.

80. McLuvin on 03 Dec 2012 at 12:18 am #

    If you read my post I specified that I’m not saying “cool under pressure” is useless, but that an undead horde is a completely different threat than a soldier has faced too. No one knows for sure how they will react seeing people(possibly loved ones) torn apart and eaten by other “people”. In that situation I’lll take people I kow can make the necessary head shots. If a shooter can’t consistently make accurate shots on a square range they aren’t going to miraculously make them on demand in a high stress situation.

81. Leatherneck on 03 Dec 2012 at 12:40 am #

    First you say “No one knows for sure how they will react”, then you say “I’ll take people I know can make the necessary head shots”. Your statements contradict each other. And your still implying only competitors can shoot accurately in that situation, and they don’t even train for the situation you describe.

82. McLuvin on 03 Dec 2012 at 1:26 am #

    You are either being intentionally obtuse or your reading comprehension is somewhat lacking. Read the last sentence of my last post.

    If both people(soldier and competitor) have the same chances of not freaking out, then I’ll take the one that is the better shot to begin with. This isn’t The Walking Dead, people aren’t going to learn how to shoot on the fly while trying to survive.

83. Leatherneck on 03 Dec 2012 at 2:02 am #

    I never said “learn on the fly”. I’m saying you can consider people who have never been on a range. Most of the rednecks around here drop deer at 200-300 yds with open sights. Just have an open mind. Your posts come across as egotistical. You don’t have to put 5 shots in a quarter sized grouping to kill a zombie. Brains are bigger than that.

84. Docwade on 03 Dec 2012 at 6:09 am #

    Chimichanga men! What are you guys doing up so freaking late pondering this!?

85. wheelgunner on 03 Dec 2012 at 3:56 pm #

    Leatherneck- Give up the ghost. They will never stop inferring things that you didn’t say into your posts. The only people who say exactly what they mean and know what they are talking about are they.

86. Otis on 04 Dec 2012 at 4:46 am #

    This is my first time posting but have read on here for A looooong time.

    Angry I want to give some praise for not abandoning the site. I love it man.

    What happened? The majority of the posts on this topic are just attacking one another. This site used to be fun. Quit trolling

87. firefox on 05 Dec 2012 at 2:59 pm #

    I agree with otis .

88. McLuvin on 05 Dec 2012 at 7:37 pm #

    Otis & Firefox- don’t worry about our arguments. This isn’t the first disagreement and it won’t be the last. If you want to post, why not post a reply to the topic?

89. HangMan on 06 Dec 2012 at 12:57 pm #

    Picked up a RIA 1911 A2 that takes double stacks. Finally got around to picking up a .45 and quite honestly I love it. I’m thinking of switching it out with my ruger, whch only holds one extra round comparatively (and it’s in 9mm) Thoughts? Even ammount of magazines, I have 3 for both. Send me your ideas people.

90. McLuvin on 06 Dec 2012 at 4:57 pm #

    Why not keep both?

91. Docwade on 06 Dec 2012 at 7:57 pm #

    I was really enamored or über high capacity 22′s for a time. I used to have a Calico m100P, the M100 take down rifle, and two early Aistrian manufactured semi auto American 180′s. They were more of a novelty with each having their blaring weaknesses. The Calico magazines were unreliable and the coil spring tensioner was vulnerable to breakage if over wound. The original steel magazines of the American 180 had a bronze toothed ring in it that would chew up lead bullets as it was originally designed for a jacketed short mag 22. Those rifles only reliably ran on ccw stingers.

    The short story is, a good, reliable 22 trumps a super high cap 22.

92. wheelgunner on 07 Dec 2012 at 1:37 am #

    Really? Because I could swear that we have been arguing that point for some time now, with you on the other side of the fence.

93. Leatherneck on 07 Dec 2012 at 10:17 am #

    It’s my understanding that the Ruger 10/22 has always been a reliable gun. Do they make any high capacity mags for it that would be worth having?

94. CompShooter on 07 Dec 2012 at 12:44 pm #

    I have 30 round mags for mine , I seen drum mags at gun shows but they are plastic too and seem more unwielding and vulnerabie to jamming or shattering if struck but I have no experience with those .

95. wheelgunner on 07 Dec 2012 at 2:16 pm #

    My friend that has one says that it’s totally worth the extra money to get them from ruger. Way more dependable.

96. Docwade on 07 Dec 2012 at 5:24 pm #

    Actually, I was only referring to the two types of 22′s in my post, the American 180 and the Calico. I completely recommend the Ruger 10/22. I like the steel lips 25 round magazines, though Ive heard good things about the factory high caps. avoid drums though.

97. HangMan on 07 Dec 2012 at 6:03 pm #

    @ Mcluvin
    Because I would like to avoid carrying around a dozen different types of ammo and magazines. And because looking like I have a bunch of stuff would identify me as a target for various different groups. Inconspicuous is my modus operandi.

98. McLuvin on 07 Dec 2012 at 7:26 pm #

    Hangman- Why do you need to carry all your guns around? It’s ok to own multiple guns.. Since when is two guns a dozen?

    Leatherneck- The 10/22 is a very good choice for a .22. You can get reliable high caps from butler creek(steel lips not hot lips) or Ruger with the new BX-25.

99. wheelgunner on 07 Dec 2012 at 7:46 pm #

    Hangman-If you are talking about carrying, I always say go with the biggest one you are comfortable with. I personally would be packing the .45.

100. McLuvin on 07 Dec 2012 at 8:45 pm #

     Hangman- In real life having multiple handguns in different cslibers is ok. I’m a fan of keeping my calibers to a small number of popular chamberings, but 9mm and .45 are definitely on the short list. In a zombie apocalypse having several weapons in different calibers could make scavenging ammo easier. Just stay away from oddball calibers.

101. HangMan on 07 Dec 2012 at 9:34 pm #

     Well I was just more concerned about the factor of walking around with 4 visible guns on display. one on my ruck, one on my side, and one in my hands during 90% of the time. Even then, still concerned about making myself a target for would be assailents. How much is too much? It’s really a conundrum with that situation.6 of one half a dozen of the other I suppose. I’d like to keep my options open but don’t want to be seen as “that guy with everything.”

102. wheelgunner on 07 Dec 2012 at 11:35 pm #

     I follow. Keep your distance, try not to get boxed in, react aggressively to threats, meaning that you should be willing to use what you are packing. It is a real conundrum as to how much is too much. Pack as much as you can and still be able to use your up front weapons effectively is my rule of thumb. It becomes more of a game of adapting strategy and tactics to what you intend to carry. If you are going concealed, go as nonchalant as possible. If not, I’d say go all out, because the risk is just as high when you look like you are worth picking a fight with as they are when you have enough stuff to maybe come out of that fight alive.

103. HangMan on 08 Dec 2012 at 3:34 pm #

     True enough wheelgunner, So maybe have one openly displayed and another concealed? So I look like I have just enough to put up a real fight without tipping my hand all the way. I suppose that 9mm could be a game changer should I find myself in an extended firefight. I get the pro’s and con’s of a different caliber. Con’s: ammo isn’t interchangeable
     Pro: guaranteed to have ammunition for that sidearm, or worse comes to worst I might be able to trade it for something I really need such as another weapon or food and water.
     Con: extra few pounds for the gun and ammution.
     Really comes down to what the situation is.

104. McLuvin on 08 Dec 2012 at 4:04 pm #

     You guys are thinking too much about carrying multiple handguns. If the shit has already hit you should be carrying a long gun as your primary and not worrying about anyone seeing it. After Z-Day everyone is considered a threat.

105. HangMan on 08 Dec 2012 at 5:15 pm #

     @Mcluvin
     Oh I’ll have my 30.06 locked and loaded for the unavoidable eventuality of my needs for defense. I’m conserned, not about the dead, so much as the living. The dead are the dead, they won’t rest. Won’t take a 5 minute coffee break. Won’t stop until I join the clan. That therefore makes them predicable. It’s the living ones I’m worried about. Not everyone is going to be a self-serving raider or marauder, some will hold on to their morals, their ideals, until their dying breath. But then, some will just be assholes.

106. wheelgunner on 08 Dec 2012 at 8:15 pm #

     I often wonder which group we would find ourselves in. I personally like back up weapons. I think that how or if you conceal it is up to you. If you can carry both at the same time without it hindering you, there are advantages to not having to dig around for your second pistol if something happens to the first one. On the same token, if something should happen to the first one, it can be to your advantage to not have exposed both weapons to whatever caused the first one to be lost or broken.

     I like to keep one on my person, with a backup in either crossdraw holster or stowed away in my pack. I usually keep a common and an uncommon caliber as well, in the event that common calibers have been picked over, and the rest have been left alone because no one else had a use for them.

     Anyone have any thoughts on the Keltech Pmr-30? It’s a hair off subject at .22 magnum, but just a hair. Suggestions for a rifle to pair with it?

107. wheelgunner on 08 Dec 2012 at 9:51 pm #

     Or, the various .17 caliber pistols and rifles?

108. McLuvin on 08 Dec 2012 at 11:44 pm #

     “I like to keep one on my person, with a backup in either crossdraw holster or stowed away in my pack. I usually keep a common and an uncommon caliber as well, in the event that common calibers have been picked over, and the rest have been left alone because no one else had a use for them.”

     You say this in a manner suggesting you do it regularly. I highly doubt that you carry multiple guns in different calibers to make scrounging ammo easier on a frequent basis.

109. wheelgunner on 09 Dec 2012 at 12:33 am #

     You, sir, may be surprised by what I do and don’t do on a regular basis, particularly in regards to my infamously bad taste in firearms. Doubting something highly still leaves me a slim margin to work within.

110. Docwade on 09 Dec 2012 at 9:42 am #

     Sooooo, show me a pick of your carry gun setup. A pic from today. You can even take it while flipping me the bird, but post a pic. “believe only half of what you see, and none of what you hear (or read in this case)”.

111. wheelgunner on 09 Dec 2012 at 1:25 pm #

     What all would you like to see of my collection? Which thread would you like it posted in? I finally have someone who is computer literate to help me post the pics.

112. CompShooter on 09 Dec 2012 at 4:11 pm #

     Am considering the Beretta m9 ( civilian version) to replace a S&W 9mm that I sold . Anybody have experience with Beretta? I remember when they had issues with slidess cracking on the 92F but thats long since been corrected. Looking for full size,not replacing my concealed carry. I reload for this caliber among others but want to get back into this caliber without paying ” Sig” prices .

113. HangMan on 09 Dec 2012 at 6:24 pm #

     @Docwade
     Name a thread for posting and you’ll have it brother. Gotta try and find an easy website to use. And on that note, trying to think of an easy way to verify indetity. Anyone can use google images to post picture of “their” loadout.

114. wheelgunner on 09 Dec 2012 at 6:30 pm #

     Yeah. I just took some pictures of my guns and added them to flicker, or however you spell it. Not sure how to verify myself, but I reckon it’ll have to do.

115. McLuvin on 09 Dec 2012 at 6:42 pm #

     Compshooter- The Beretta 92/M9 is a good gun, but if you get a chance try out the PX4. I think it’s a better overall package.

     I still want a thread dedicated to proof. Docwade is right, we have many people making statements and giving advice without backing it up. Why should anyone be taken seriously if they don’t show us that they know their shit? We may find that certain posters don’t even shoot, but live in their parents basement and play call of duty too much.

116. HangMan on 09 Dec 2012 at 6:46 pm #

     Deffinatly willing to prove I’ve got firearms and know how to shoot them. Would be willing to walk out the door right now and make a video at Dragonmans but it’s like 10 degrees out at the range. Shut it down for the time being. :/ Deffinately willing to post pictures and or videos.

117. HangMan on 09 Dec 2012 at 6:48 pm #

     But they won’t be at the range, froze my ass off on my way back from denver. Not looking to do it again today.

118. wheelgunner on 09 Dec 2012 at 7:26 pm #

     That sounds like profiles for a site redesign to me. Shame.

119. Docwade on 09 Dec 2012 at 7:54 pm #

     Post a link in this thread. If you don’t want to flip me the bird, I suppose you could put a “Z” on a post it or index card next to whatever you are photoing.

120. CompShooter on 09 Dec 2012 at 7:57 pm #

     @McLuvin,
     Yeah, saw those too, will have to start comparing some in time for tax returns.
     As far as posting pics go, I see photobucket has a 1 meg limit per photo , Id have to look at mine to see if they are under that , I keep a double set of pics and a list of model / serial # on two flash drives , one home one off sight for insurance purposes.

121. wheelgunner on 09 Dec 2012 at 9:19 pm #

     http://www.flickr.com/photos/90938083@N06/with/8259324556/#photo_8259324556

     I’ve talked about most of these, and the date is stamped on them. I already took the photos, so it’ll have to do.

122. McLuvin on 09 Dec 2012 at 9:32 pm #

     You need to work on your pics a little. Most of those are pretty hard to recognize, but st least it shows ypu have some. Now what is the proof that you know how to use them?

123. wheelgunner on 09 Dec 2012 at 9:40 pm #

     Is my word not sufficient? I don’t keep anything around for show like that. Mostly use throw away targets as a matter of course.

     And I was asked for my setup, not a close up of each weapon. Any specific questions in regards to them?

124. McLuvin on 09 Dec 2012 at 9:44 pm #

     How about a list of make and model? It’s hard to tell what most of them are.

125. wheelgunner on 09 Dec 2012 at 9:59 pm #

     Crap. left to right, longarms:
     Uberti 1885 High Wall, .45-70
     Stoeger Uplander, 20 gauge
     Norinco SKS, 7.62x39mm
     Remington 742 Woodmaster, .30-06
     Marlin something or other, .22 LR
     Uberti 1873 Winchester, .45LC
     Mauser Kar98, 8mm Mauser
     Russian Mosin Nagant 91/30, 7.62x54RR
     Savage model something, .17HMR
     Remington 870 Marine Magnum, 12 gauge
     Smith and Wesson M15, .223
     Ruger Gunsite Scout, .308

     small arms:
     Uberti 1851 Colt Navy Cartridge Conversion, .38 Special
     Uberti Schofield, .45LC
     Uberti Colt SAA, .45LC
     Smith and Wesson J or L frame, .32S&W Long
     Springfield Colt 1911A1, .45ACP
     Taurus Model 66, .357 magnum
     Taurus model something, .357 magnum
     Uberti 1851 Colt Navy revolver, .36 Percussion

126. wheelgunner on 09 Dec 2012 at 10:02 pm #

     As well as a couple of broke ones and a couple of bows I didn’t think should be posted alongside them.

     I am interested in feedback, if you have any.

127. Docwade on 09 Dec 2012 at 11:18 pm #

     It’s looks like a bit of cowboy action shooting, some hunting, and a little inexpensive WWII fare. I was curious about the mention of your second gun in a cross draw holster ala cowboy action.

128. Docwade on 09 Dec 2012 at 11:29 pm #

     Hmmm…does that make you a Caucasian male, age 28-36, married?

129. wheelgunner on 10 Dec 2012 at 12:02 am #

     What leads you to that conclusion?

130. wheelgunner on 10 Dec 2012 at 12:03 am #

     And I know you cannot see it in the picks, but the holster that the Taurus 66 sits in is also a crossdraw.

131. McLuvin on 10 Dec 2012 at 12:03 am #

     I don’t see much I’d want to face a zombie horde with.

132. wheelgunner on 10 Dec 2012 at 12:18 am #

     As long as you see anything I’ve done my job of prepping correctly. Seriously, I would love to run the buffalo gun, but unless I pair it up well with something else, it’s a plain stupid decision. Maybe a bow?

133. McLuvin on 10 Dec 2012 at 12:35 am #

     Rest assured, the buffalo gun would be a “plain stupid” decision no matter what you paired it with.

134. wheelgunner on 10 Dec 2012 at 12:54 am #

     They have there place. I have a bandoleer that I can load for either of my .45′s that helps out a lot for combat type situations. Holds somewhere upwards of 80 rounds on it. I have been putting some thought into a lever action in the same caliber to make up for the lack of RPM. The single shot does help stress placing it correctly, and I’ve been considering getting a Lee Hand Loader for it to get into the swing of things.

135. Leatherneck on 10 Dec 2012 at 2:04 am #

     @wheelgunner,
     I agree with your single shot theory. Until the initial shock of a zombie outbreak wears off, it would be too easy to spaz fire with a semi auto. I would have to start out with my Marlin 336 30-30, its my deer rifle. My ideal would be a .357 levergun, but I’ll go with what I got. Hopefully, I’d be able to locate a semi auto 9mm. Personally I wouldn’t trust a .22. Yes, they can kill, but I prefer something more definite. Question is, how much of the brain has to be destroyed. If its just a small part, whats the odds of a .22 doing enough damage. And I live in a rural area, doubtful I’d have to deal with a horde.

136. wheelgunner on 10 Dec 2012 at 3:12 am #

     I am a big fan of the .30-30. Mine is out on loan right now. Cheap ammo, probably the easiest nonmilitary ammo to scavenge, good stopping power to weight ratio. I’ve also been looking at a .357 levergun. Seems like a logical next step when I can afford one. Both are still good for rabbits to deer if you can get a shot off.

     In a situation where you can’t barter or purchase one, the theory is your weapon only has to be good enough to get you a better one.

137. Docwade on 10 Dec 2012 at 6:30 am #

     If that is the case, “the theory is your weapon only has to be good enough to get you a better one,” and everyone is operating in that fashion, the people already equipped with “the better ones” are going to cause a sudden decline in population of those without.

138. Docwade on 10 Dec 2012 at 7:04 am #

     Your post134
     “I’ve been giving some though to a lever action in the same caliber (45LC)”.
     Your list says you already have one:
     Uberti 1873 45LC, why wouldn’t you carry your rifle and pistol in the same caliber?
     Also, I have to assume you only recently purchased your 45-70 after June of this year.
     Either way, for the most part, you have very…pretty firearms. NiCe blued steel and shiney wood. Finding firearms won’t be a problem in the US. I think finding ammunition will be the problem. So, after we exhaust this new thread of “show you mine if you show me yours,” everyone please post a pick of your ammo stockpile!

139. CompShooter on 10 Dec 2012 at 7:16 am #

     Doc is a ATF agent , lol. Jk

140. McLuvin on 10 Dec 2012 at 8:18 am #

     Using your shitty gun to get a better one is not a good idea. It has been used as a technique of desperation in past occupations to mild success at best. In the situation we are discussing the enemy is unarmed so getting a weapon from them is a non-starter. Now you are faced with killing another survivor to get their weapon. In many cases the better equipped survivor will also be the better trained survivor so taking their stuff could prove difficult. In other cases the survivor could be someone you are not willing to kill for moral reasons. I think having the proper tools ready ahead of time is the only real option.

     Doc is absolutely correct about having the ammo to keep your guns fed. If you have 8 or 10 different calibers and a couple boxes for each you have severely limited yourself. Now you can’t move location without taking all of your crappy guns or abandoning some of your less useful ammo. If you focus on a handful of good cartridges you can take the guns best suited for the job and load all your ammo in your vehicle. You don’t feel pressed to grab that extra slow revolver just because you have 100 rounds of anemic .32S&W.

141. Leatherneck on 10 Dec 2012 at 9:21 am #

     Considering anyone can buy a gun, I’m willing to bet most better equipped have no training. Therefore, my lever gun will only have to do till I come across someone better equipped that got overconfident.

142. Docwade on 10 Dec 2012 at 9:33 am #

     How man rounds you got for that 30-30 right now?

143. Docwade on 10 Dec 2012 at 9:39 am #

     It has been my experience that hunters’ weapons tend to have less than 100 rounds on hand for their hunting rifle.

144. McLuvin on 10 Dec 2012 at 9:45 am #

     And the average hunter is lucky if they kill a deer each fall. I’ve seen many hunters at the range a week before gun season. They shoot an 8″ group and consider themselves a crack shot. I know people who buy one box of ammo each fall and go to the range once then have enough left to hunt with.

145. Leatherneck on 10 Dec 2012 at 10:42 am #

     @Docwade
     I meant to imply am not the better equipped. With my income, the zombie apocalypse doesn’t fit in my budget. That and the wife has different priorities.
     @McLuvin
     I never claimed to be a crack shot just proficient. Tho it’s been almost 25 years since I regularly shot 500 yard bullseyes with an m16, I am still better trained than a lot of the people I’ve met that are better equipped. And I am talking about more than just shooting. And no I am not an experienced zombie slayer but I do use common sense.

146. wheelgunner on 10 Dec 2012 at 12:48 pm #

     Budgeting is a really issue that you two do not seem to take into account very often. Just an observation. What do you guys do to afford everything?

     Having a weapon good enough to see you to your next one doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to kill for it. Also, just because one gun is better for the situation you are in doesn’t disregard skill or the value of the weapon you have, merely the poorness of the choice for what you are about. I confident that if it came down to it, I could use my choice of firearms until something better happens along. If it doesn’t, then I must have been better equipped than everyone expected.

     One more thing that I would like to get straight. If a measly .22LR is such an awesome zombie slaying device, what is the problem of upsizing into a .32? I’m really not understanding McLuvin’s prejudice on this one. All of my calibers are too big, but if I get a smaller one that still has enough punch to kill a zombie, he derides the decision even harder.
     @Doc-The leveraction in question that I want is a .45-70, not a .45LC.

147. Castle83 on 10 Dec 2012 at 8:34 pm #

     I think Wheelgunner makes a valid point. I think people on this site get to obsessed with “the perfect anti-zombie killing weapons”. And while part of this site is dedicated to the best we should use; I think that it is also what we have available and how we will make do and survive.

     Using what I have on hand to survive and thrive has always been what has drawn me to a zombie appocolypse genra. For example, when I was 22 all I had to work with was a 5 shot 7.62 mosin and a glock 19 9mm. Is this the best setup to use in a zombie appocolypse? Hell no, but I woudn’t want to be given crap just because that is all I could afford at the time. (No I am not defending Wheelgunners preferences, I am simply saying that people should use what they have even if it is outdated and antiquated)

     Furthermore most people purchase firearms for practical uses and not planning for a zombie appocolypse. People are going to buy what weapons they like because no one really expects this shit to happen. Is a scoped remmington 700 the premier anti-zombie weapon? No, but people are sure as shit going to use them to hunt and would use them if SHTF.

     I also think every weapon in my arsenal is usefull to some degree. Would I use the afore mentioned Mosin as my primary weapon? Abosolutely not. However if I was stuck on a rooftop and completely surrounded, I would use the extra 1500 or so 7.62x54r rounds i have to thin the ranks.

     So I submit to you reader, use what you have and rock it as hard as you can. If all you have or can afford are second rate weapons then use them to the best of your abilities.

148. wheelgunner on 10 Dec 2012 at 9:04 pm #

     Even if I go out and buy some of the stuff I get told to(AR 15, Automatic Pistol, Etc.), the nay sayers still aren’t satisfied with my choices. I can show evidence of trying to optimize, and still get discreditted because they are not my favorite weapons to carry, or that I’m not trying to explore options for how to best pair up and wield the rest of my arsenal, nor do they care about having any other reasons for carrying a different weapon set. I don’t even care if you approve of my choices. I would still like some feed back as to why you don’t like them, and maybe some ideas on improving them without discarding them in favor of other weapons.

     I have made sure to cover as many calibers as I could that I should be able to gain access to ammo for in the future. I will not own another 9mm unless someone can prove to me in person that there is one out there worth owning. I have been entirely unimpressed by them on every occasion that I have run into one.

     On an interesting side note, a .308 will fit perfectly in a .45 caliber shell belt or bandoleer.

     @Doc-I wish they had Cowboy Action Shooting in my area. I would also love to know ho you came up with your guess on that whole age bit.

149. McLuvin on 10 Dec 2012 at 9:10 pm #

     If you have a dozen second(or third) rate weapons you could have a few good ones. Budget isn’t as important as good decision making.

150. McLuvin on 10 Dec 2012 at 9:29 pm #

     Wheelgunner- I believe we have given multiple reasons for not liking your choices. We are discussing a specific situation that involves defending yourself from large groups of tireless enemies. Nothing about that scenario screams low capacity and slow.

     I’m not sure why you don’t like the 9mm, but you do like the 32s&w. The .32 is an anemic cartridge that’s only available in antique weapons. It has pitiful power and is not easy to find in any quantity. Many of the rest of your ammo choices are large overly powerful rounds that once again are chambered in antiquated weapons. You have apparently chosen to stockpile shitty guns just to say that you have a bunch. Some of us buy quality instead of quantity. Some of us also use our guns regularly for more than plinking in the backyard or a few days of hunting a year.

151. wheelgunner on 10 Dec 2012 at 10:01 pm #

     What do you use yours for, on a regular basis? The way you have presented things in the past sounds an awful lot like a lot of plinking to me.

     As for the .32 S&W, the cartridge is making a comeback, at least around here, as a lower end for .32 H&R Magnum, and the .327 Federal Magnum, as well as being able to fire .32 ACP ammunition, which is much easier to both acquire, and to carry in bulk. It is also quite small, and very accurate.

152. McLuvin on 10 Dec 2012 at 10:19 pm #

     How are you firing .32ACP in your .32 s&w? They don’t even have the same bore diameter. I seriously doubt it’s experiencing much of a resurgence in any area. Neither the H&R or the .327 has enough popularity to effect the .32S&W.

     I compete with my guns 3-4 times a month. Competition is a far cry from plinking.

153. Docwade on 10 Dec 2012 at 10:21 pm #

     I just like firearms. I have owned or have thought of owning most of your firearms. However, they would not be the firearms I would reach for in my vault to fight zombie hordes. I mean really, two 45 LC single action revolvers and a single shot rifle (whatever the caliber). 13 rounds if you don’t carry your pistols with an empty chamber under the hammer, otherwise you’re down to 11. Take into account, there’s also two weapon transitions in there.

     Now, I could accomplish the same thing with a Glock 21 with a postban 10 round mag with one in the chamber or one off ban 13 round magazine. No transitions. I’m not sure why you are so stuck on 150 year old designs. You have a perfectly good 1911 in that pile for a side arm and an ok ar15. But shoot what you’ve got and are comfortable with.

     But, the whole idea is to send rounds down range, if you have a lot of targets, well, you’re going to have to throw a lot of lead. 13 rounds before you have to reload three guns isn’t going to cut it.

     On a side note, i would really like to transition a few of my firearms to suppressor hosts. But I’ll have to wait a bit. If I have an idea of the tool I’ll need for the job at hand, well, I’ve got an app for that. Of course, I also have a “hammer” that will fix most nails.

154. wheelgunner on 10 Dec 2012 at 10:24 pm #

     I wonder how competitive plinking counts?

     I know that I have run .32 ACP’s through it, up to about fifteen yards or so, with good accuracy. I don’t know the science or anything, but it works quite well in my experience. .003 bullet diameter isn’t that much of a difference.

155. Docwade on 10 Dec 2012 at 10:24 pm #

     I’m curious about the 32acp in those firearms as well. Rimless and I’m pretty sure no one would go to the trouble making custom spring steel moon clips and cutting cylinders for those custom moon clips.

156. wheelgunner on 10 Dec 2012 at 10:37 pm #

     As I’ve stated in the past, its the feel of the firearm that gets me. I’ve been shooting either a Colt grip or a Old S&W grip since I’ve been old enough to handle a pistol. Have you looked at the grip on that Schofield? It’s a hard transition from that to a Glock, and I have neither time, money, nor inclination to get used to transitioning between both handle styles. Even the angle you squeeze the trigger at and the fingers you apply certain amounts of pressure with change drastically between the two.

     The 1911 is part of one of my standard carries. It all depends upon which longarm I am carrying that determines which set I carry. I have been packing that Schofield around for so long that I expect the other ones to ride in the same place and draw the same way, which they obviously cannot. They simply aren’t as familiar, and I cannot get them into action as quick. Part of that system is my longarm, which shoots the same caliber bullet.

     Contrary to what my name implies, I much prefer longarms to short. If my pistol is just there for last ditch or back up, how much does it really matter? Why not take advantage of the otherwise wasted ammunition of my main carry?

157. wheelgunner on 10 Dec 2012 at 10:38 pm #

     Doesn’t need one. It grips the cylinder of mine just fine.

158. Docwade on 10 Dec 2012 at 10:41 pm #

     On what?

159. Docwade on 10 Dec 2012 at 10:44 pm #

     Got it, it’s semi rimmed, never noticed that when I had my few 32acp’s but…
     Don’t do it. They are not interchangable.

     The notes below are stolen from another forum.
     Nominal bullet diameter of the .32ACP is .311″. The .32 H&R Mag., .32 S&W, .32 S&W Long launch .307″ bullets. The revolver cases are straight sided .337″ tubes, the .32 ACP tapers from .337″ to .336″ at the mouth. The ACP rim is nominally .357″, the revolver case rims .375″.

160. wheelgunner on 10 Dec 2012 at 10:45 pm #

     Huh? The .32 ACP fits the cylinder without need of a moon clip. I can upload a pic or two if it’ll help. I still have a few on hand.

161. wheelgunner on 10 Dec 2012 at 10:48 pm #

     Wikipedia and the total lack of problems that I had say otherwise. The .312 and .309 are what they have listed, S&w then Colt.

162. wheelgunner on 10 Dec 2012 at 10:58 pm #

     It also says that the S&W has a larger neck on the casing, which matters little in a revolver that the neck never gets anywhere near the barrel. Only the bullet diameter matters.

163. Docwade on 10 Dec 2012 at 11:03 pm #

     Did you just quote Wikipedia?
     Hey, it’s your gun. Do with it what you will.
     That’s a lot of headspace for that round to cover. You have, by far, some of the oddest pistol/caliber choices. I have a fondness for combloc stuff. Why? I don’t know, I just like it. Most of my firearms are centered around those rounds. But the flip side is, they are all in current, COMMON usage, by a lot of countries. I like the 7.62×39 and 7.62x54r, but if I can get by with a 22lr, I’ll use it instead simply for the fact that I can carry 1000 rounds of 22lr and not think twice about it. If it turns out the 22lr isn’t enough, and I will know that very early on, well, up the power ladder I go!

164. wheelgunner on 10 Dec 2012 at 11:18 pm #

     Doc-Are you ever going to tell me how you can up with those guesses? I’m seriously curious as to your method.

165. Leatherneck on 11 Dec 2012 at 12:31 am #

     McLuvin, you compete, you obviously have the time, money and ability to do so. I also hope it’s something you enjoy. I respect that. I understand wheelgunner probably enjoys his firearm selection. The few guns I own I chose for a purpose and I like them. I am not going to spend my money on a zombie rifle just for a hypothetical situation. I think wheelgunnner feels the same, tho I could be wrong.

166. wheelgunner on 11 Dec 2012 at 1:30 am #

     I don’t like to be caught unprepared, but I do concur.

     What makes my guns second and third rate, if you don’t mind my asking?

     Also, McLuvin, Doc-How many persons do you have weapons and stores prepared for? This could be a contributing factor.

167. wheelgunner on 11 Dec 2012 at 1:38 am #

     I’m honestly not sure what makes a good zombie gun anymore. It would appear to be an expensive, .22LR, .223 Combo assault rifle with 5000 carry rounds in magazines with a high power scope that has a red dot on top of it with amazing accuracy and no noticeable weight. And a Glock 9mm with another thousand rounds and night sights, flashlight, suppressor and a god complex.

     And free. Shouldn’t forget that part.

     “Budget isn’t as important as good decision making.” Like tactics, diversity, and backups? Another thought. Are we crediting forting up, or just the standard endless road wasteland fantasy?

     Because that is the kind of feedback we keep getting.

168. McLuvin on 11 Dec 2012 at 7:56 am #

     I don’t know where you guys got the idea that I bought my guns for zombies. Most of my guns were purchased for competition or defensive use. In my mind “zombies” is a mental exercise for prepping/survival. There are many disasters or riot scenarios that could have large unruly mobs trying to take what you have or harm you and your family. In all of these situation a high-capacity, semi-automatic trumps a SA revolver or single shot rifle. In addition to my competition/defensive guns I collect a certain type of revolver. It is my favorite gun, but I wouldn’t choose it for the type of situation we are discussing. I shoot my revolver better and faster than many people shoot a semi-auto, but it still has too many drawbacks to be a good choice in this instance.

     Wheelgunner- I don’t mean to be insulting about your collection, but it seems you have chosen to accumulate cheap, mil-surp style weapons. Mosin Nagants, SKSs, K98s, are all 50-100 year old military designs. Several of which weren’t even top rate when they were new and current issue. Most of your handguns are either vintage or clones of vintage guns in inefficient calibers. The .45LC is a very large cartridge with moderate power. It can be loaded up to full efficiency, but none of your guns could handle it. So essentially you are carrying a bunch of extra weight for nothing. The 45-70 suffers from the same issues. Your .308 is better all around. Better ballistics, better capacity, better accuracy, but still not a great choice against large groups. Your obscure cartridges and guns are next to useless for defensive purposes. Low power, low capacity, hard to get ammo, etc. You also don’t seem to know much about your weapons. You call your 1911 a Springfield Colt. Several of your guns you don’t even know the models. I can tell you the make, model, and details of every gun I own. You constantly bring up the idea of learning a new gun. How you don’t have the time/money/desire to get familiar with a different design. That tells me that you aren’t a real shooter. Skilled shooters can pick up just aout any gun and use it competently.

169. Docwade on 11 Dec 2012 at 9:02 am #

     @Wheelgunner
     Was I close?

170. wheelgunner on 11 Dec 2012 at 2:37 pm #

     It is a Springfield made 1911, which is originally a Colt design. So, I called it a Colt to distinguish it from all the other 1911 models in the world. Because just damn, did a lot of guns come out in 1911.

     There is a difference between using a gun comfortably, and using it competently. I am a competent shooter with a gun that will run, but I have a lot of trouble become comfortable with them, because of the differences I keep mentioning.

     Once again, there is a budgeting issue. If I can afford one box of cartridges, do I buy one for the guns I know best, and have carried the longest? Or, do I buy one for the ones that I know the least, and shoot most of them up trying to learn it better? Because that one box my have to last me for a long while.

     Can you give some more specific examples of what you consider good zombie guns? Personally, out of that list, I only think of about half of them as even maybe zombie guns. The rest are backups, interest guns, or intended to give to people I don’t much like after SHTF. The buffalo gun can actually take full pressure loads, and I have been considering reloading the .45LC to get it up to grade, since they are underloaded for CAS.

     @Doc-you were in the ballpark. I’ll go that far.

171. Docwade on 11 Dec 2012 at 4:34 pm #

     McLuvin needs a swear jar!

172. Leatherneck on 11 Dec 2012 at 4:51 pm #

     McLuvin, I didn’t say you bought your guns for zombies. I said you bought your guns for your own reasons, as did I. I doubt I will ever see an unruly mob in my area. Therefore I don’t need a semi auto, high cap firearm. When I said zombie rifle I was just referring to a rifle suitable for the discussed scenario.

173. Docwade on 11 Dec 2012 at 5:59 pm #

     “Don’t need a semi-auto, high cap firearm”???
     Where are we? Australia? It’s always better to have it an not need it blah blah blah.

174. wheelgunner on 11 Dec 2012 at 6:08 pm #

     I think Doc is on his happy meds.

175. wheelgunner on 11 Dec 2012 at 7:36 pm #

     I’m feeling generous. What are some good hi capacity .45′s, and they’re price ranges.

176. McLuvin on 11 Dec 2012 at 9:01 pm #

     Wheelgunner- to answer your question in post #170. We have discussed good zombie gun attributes in the past. You want; light weight, high capacity, accuracy, reliability, parts availability, widely available ammo, etc.
     Light weight because you may need to carry it for long periods along with all your other gear and ammo. High capacity to deal with large groups of enemies with minimal reloading. Accurate for headshots. Reliable so you can count on it in bad situations. If it uses commonly available parts you can keep it running longer. Obviously if the ammo is common you will find more of it.
     You’ll notice that power is not one of the requirements. You only need enough power to get the job done. “Stopping power” is just wasted when body shots do no good. You don’t need power to reach out and touch because zombies at 1,000 yards are not a threat. With power comes weight. The ammunition and weapon weigh more with no real benefit.
     Rounds in common usage that would be preferable for zombies would be; .22LR, 9mm, and .223.
     In the zombie apocalypse 9mm>.45ACP and .223>.308.

     To answer your question in post #175
     Glock 21sf
     M&P .45
     XDm .45
     CZ97

177. McLuvin on 11 Dec 2012 at 9:02 pm #

     All in the $550-$650 range.

178. wheelgunner on 11 Dec 2012 at 10:23 pm #

     I actually wanted a straight out make and model for the ideal gun(s).

     Not much of a high cap bonus over a 1911.

179. McLuvin on 11 Dec 2012 at 11:09 pm #

     LWD G9 5″ with Liberty Mystic and Aimpoint T-1 backed up by a Glock 17.

     This combo gives you the essential requirements for a good zombie gun with sufficient power to use against living hostiles.

180. wheelgunner on 11 Dec 2012 at 11:45 pm #

     Decent piece of money hung up there. So, your think that an oversized SMG semi auto with a pistol barrel is ideal?

     Range, hunting, hard targets, stopping power? What do you plan to do about magazines post-shtf? I’ve been meaning to ask. Do you replace them in the mag pouch? What if one malfunctions? If there are more things to shoot than your currently stocked magazines? How dependable is the system? What if your magazines become nonoperational?

181. McLuvin on 12 Dec 2012 at 12:07 am #

     Oversized? It weighs 6lbs 5oz and is only 25″ long. It’s pretty compact.

     Range? It hits just fine out to 200.

     Hunting? It’ll kill anything in my neck of the woods without problem.

     Hard targets? 9mm punches through most things just fine. I don’t see up-armored cars and body armor becoming more common after a zombie outbreak.

     Stopping Power? Once again, stopping power has no use against zombies and well placed 9mm has been “stopping” people for more than a century.

     Magazines? I’ll pick up my magazines after I kill the group at hand. I can currently load 768 rounds in Glock magazines so I should be ready for any small horde. If there are more than that I’m probably screwed anyway. Plus, my group would be helping. Glock magazines are known to be very reliable, but in the event of a malfunction, I’ll clear the gun and fight on. Clearing jams is second nature to competition shooters. If a magazine breaks it gets pitched. That’s the beauty of Glock mags being everywhere.

182. wheelgunner on 12 Dec 2012 at 10:37 am #

     A 9mm has been failing to stop a lot more people for just as long. It’s just not enough gun for my area, or my tastes. It also won’t cut brush the same way that a heavier, potentially slower bullet will. I really don’t like rifles with pistol barrels. Seems to defeat most of the purpose, but this will turn into a M1 Carbine argument, as in crappy rifle or improved pistol, is it worth it?

     I could put in one of your types of arguments here. Not everyone can shoot it effectively, not everyone can afford one, not everyone has the same amount of ammo stockpile for it, you are putting a lot of faith in one cartridge and one weapon system, blah, blah, blah. Instead, I would like to thank you for the straight answer, and backing up your decision with proper vehemence.

183. Angryvikingman on 12 Dec 2012 at 11:19 am #

     Wow…

     As for 9mm not stopping people, its actually all about round placement. Lungs, heart, and brain shots are definately going to stop people. After Z-Day there won’t be hospitals to put people back together, so one gut shot, and you’re dead. (Slowly)

     On the flip side of that, one of the guys in the prison I work at got shot 14 times with 9mm. I saw the scars where the holes were, but he also said that he spent 3 months in the hospital afterward. You’re probably not going to run into some crackhead, or guy hopped up on PCP/bathsalts in everyday life, so 9mm will do just fine.

     As for hi cap .45, I’ll tell you that I’d take a CZ97B over any 1911. They just shoot better. The 1911 has a better trigger, but for overall performance, the CZ has it beat.

184. Docwade on 12 Dec 2012 at 11:19 am #

     So, we never did get around to how many rounds of 45lc and 45-70 you have on hand. Plus, why would you even ask about a 45acp high cap? You have made it very clear you have no interest in them semi auto plastic guns. You’ve got those plow-handle hands.

185. Angryvikingman on 12 Dec 2012 at 12:02 pm #

     FYI: CZ97B the only plastic on it is the grip and mag base plate. Heavy and awesome.

186. wheelgunner on 12 Dec 2012 at 12:35 pm #

     I don’t have that many on hand right this second. Spent the last couple of weeks getting a group set up properly and hunting, and it cost me a lot of rounds to do so. Found out that somebody had been messing with the sights on a few of them. That cost some more ammo to walk them back on target. I am supposed to be getting more some time this week though. We’ll see how that turns out.

     One of the reasons that I want stopping power is because when I want something dead, I want it dead fast, with as few hits and as far away as possible. Even some of the critters out here I wouldn’t want to face down with an underpowered round, i.e. a 9mm. Say what you like, a .45LC does have more rocking power on a successful hit. Around here, per capita, we actually have more of some types of drugs than anywhere else in the nation. And those crackheads often have access to guns and bad decisions.

     As I have said before, on paper I agreed with most of what is being said. I just can’t stake a whole bunch of lives on what looks good on imaginary paper.

     As for the hi cap, I would love to have one that I could work with. I just haven’t found one that I either like, or that has enough extra cartridge capacity to be worth the effort. I do not consider 2 extra rounds per magazine much of a hi cap. I was hoping that yall might know something that I didn’t, and was willing to grasp at straws.

187. Docwade on 12 Dec 2012 at 2:06 pm #

     Three out of four of the high cap 45 autos listed were plastic, I didn’t feel the need to break them down further, Angry.

188. Docwade on 12 Dec 2012 at 2:08 pm #

     Here’s one for you, if you want a revolver that takes a bunch of common calibers, hunt down a Medusa.

189. Angryvikingman on 12 Dec 2012 at 2:46 pm #

     If you want a 14 round .45, get a Para 14.45.
     http://www.para-usa.com/new/product_pistol.php?id=92

     14+1 rounds of .45. but its $1,299.

190. wheelgunner on 12 Dec 2012 at 2:52 pm #

     The EAA SAR K2 says it has a 14 round clip, but I know nothing about the gun and the company.

     The Para at least looks like its worth the price.

191. Docwade on 12 Dec 2012 at 4:03 pm #

     You can find them in the $800-900 range used.

192. Docwade on 12 Dec 2012 at 4:06 pm #

     Para P14′s that is.

193. Docwade on 12 Dec 2012 at 4:06 pm #

     I sold my LDA P14 stainless with three mags to an acquaintance for $600.

194. Angryvikingman on 12 Dec 2012 at 4:18 pm #

     Yeah, I thought about getting one of those SAR K2s because its based off the CZ design, has a tac rail, and 14+1 capability. Just hard as balls to find one at any of the local dealers. May just have to grab one off the net and transfer.

195. Angryvikingman on 12 Dec 2012 at 4:22 pm #

     Hot damn! $446 on cheaper than dirt! Too bad I have to wait until tax time. I’m gonna take about $2,500 and spend it on guns and ammo when I get my taxes back. Looking at around $8,000 return this year hopefully.

196. wheelgunner on 12 Dec 2012 at 4:31 pm #

     I saw the cheaperthandirt earlier too. Do you thin that it would be worth getting? I don’t know the company.

197. Docwade on 12 Dec 2012 at 5:38 pm #

     Come on, Wheelgunner. “Stick to your guns” as it were. Don’t all of a sudden start thinking high cap automatics! You be you, and that’s a 45 LC SA shooter. I like spaghetti westerns as much as the next guy.

198. wheelgunner on 12 Dec 2012 at 5:55 pm #

     I hate spaghetti westerns. They are the spoofs of the western genre. Contrary to apparently popular belief, I am not a one trick pony. I can still throw blue whistlers all day with my wheelguns, and ain’t a damn one of you insufferable jackasses gonna change that.

199. wheelgunner on 12 Dec 2012 at 7:02 pm #

     I would like some feedback on reloading my .45′s. From what I have read, even in the original frame styles it was made for, the .45 LC is intended to shoot somewhere between 150 and 250 or so more feet per second. Is it worth investing in reloading equipment in order to maximize the efficiency of the round, and by extension, my ability to kill things with it?

200. McLuvin on 12 Dec 2012 at 9:51 pm #

     You could load .45 a little hotter, but the slight gain in performance wouldn’t be worth the initial expense. If you want to reload in bulk to save money on ammo then the expense would be quickly amortized.

     To really make the .45LC efficient you’d have to buy some Rugers. It has the case capacity to be more powerful than .44mag, but most guns can’t handle it.

     I agree that spaghetti westerns suck. I’ll take John Wayne over Clint Eastwood any day.

201. CompShooter on 12 Dec 2012 at 9:59 pm #

     I been reloading since the mid eighties started out with a lee progressive and a single station o press, once I wore that out I went with a dillon XL 650 been using that since about 92 , you can experiment with all kinds of
     bullet types and weights and freebore distances etc. Dillon makes solid equipment and has a great warranty. Currently I make 45 ACP @.19 cents a round ( $9.59 per 100). I load for:

     30.06
     45ACP
     38 spl
     357 mag
     .223
     9mm (currently no weapon)
     30 carbine

202. McLuvin on 12 Dec 2012 at 10:12 pm #

     Comp- I think your math is a little off, but you are correct that reloading can cut ammo costs significantly.

203. CompShooter on 12 Dec 2012 at 10:41 pm #

     I plugged all my coats into a android app . I leave out the brass case cost because of a couple factors. One being on average I reuse rifle cases 7 times before discarding from the case stretch factor seen as a shiney ring just above the case head . Pistol cases I reuse much more until the primer seating operation feels loose or case inspection reveils cracks or a lot of extractor marks on the case etc. The other is I collect once fired cases of the same maker at the range a lot , this also helps with case cost , basically I call it zero. Here is my math as I plugged 45 ACP in the app

     Powder 28$ per 1 pound (7000 grs)
     Bullets 230 gr RNFMJ $75 per 500 rds
     Primer CCI. $32. @ 1000 qtn
     Case $0
     Grains per round 5.4

     I had a typo , should be $9.59 per 50 not 100 but still last time I saw , 45 ACP here was $29.99 per 50 rnds

204. Docwade on 12 Dec 2012 at 10:44 pm #

     “stay gold wheelgunner…stay gold.”

205. wheelgunner on 12 Dec 2012 at 11:46 pm #

     It would be a double bonus from where I am sitting. I get full power rounds, and get them cheaper. They are going for $42 plus tax for fifty, and I have around twenty hungry guns begging for feeding. And, by a little hotter, you mean a 1/8 to a 1/4 increase in performance not being worth the effort?

     Honestly, unless I am somewhere way further north, I think that .454 and .44 mag on up are too much pistol to be worth the effort. Too much recoil, too much noise, too unbalanced on the whole.

206. wheelgunner on 13 Dec 2012 at 12:40 am #

     Maybe if I could get a howdah style double pistol made. Then I would totally rock me some high power pistol rounds.

207. wheelgunner on 13 Dec 2012 at 12:46 am #

     Any thoughts on the ruger blackhawk convertible? .357/9mm or .45LC/.45ACP.

     http://www.ruger.com/products/newModelBlackhawkConvertible/models.html

208. Castle83 on 13 Dec 2012 at 2:37 pm #

     While we are posting proof of our equipment… Here is a link to what I consider my pertinant zombie weapons. I have more guns but I would use these more than any other. Hope the link works.

     http://s1293.beta.photobucket.com/user/blacktyde83/library/

209. wheelgunner on 13 Dec 2012 at 3:15 pm #

     Pretty. How does the sig shoot?

210. Castle83 on 13 Dec 2012 at 3:43 pm #

     Best pistol I’ve ever fired. Smooth, accurate and never jams no matter what I feed it. This would be my backup come Z day. Though I wouldn’t mind getting one full sized. You can’t see it but it has night sites too.

211. wheelgunner on 13 Dec 2012 at 3:52 pm #

     I looked at one once. That a Nagant I saw with the scope on it?

212. Castle83 on 13 Dec 2012 at 4:03 pm #

     Yes sir. I threw a Monte Carlo stock on, rewelded the bolt handle to allow for a scope and slapped a scope on it. Those rifles are so fun for the price. Oridginaly got the rifle at big 5 for 90$.

213. wheelgunner on 13 Dec 2012 at 4:31 pm #

     I like them, personally. They are more accurate than I think that they get credit for, and really hard to beat for the price. Wish the ammo was easier to find. Too bad you can’t still throw stripper clips through it.

214. wheelgunner on 13 Dec 2012 at 4:39 pm #

     What do yall think about these?

     http://www.specialinterestarms.com/index.php?page=enfield_conversions

215. Castle83 on 13 Dec 2012 at 4:42 pm #

     Yeah, they are pretty accurate. You can get surplus ammo pretty cheap, if you don’t mind steel core that is. I got 1000 rounds of 7.62 x 54r from Bulgaria I think. Something like $200. Good ammo too.

216. wheelgunner on 13 Dec 2012 at 4:44 pm #

     Awesome. I got leery of surplus ammo. I bought some one time that I ended up paying more per shot than if I had bought some high quality stuff, and had a huge pile of unshootable shells lying around.

217. CompShooter on 13 Dec 2012 at 9:11 pm #

     That’s another thing to consider if you intend on getting into reloading . Military ammo from former soviet countries, china and other European countries are likely berdan primed, meaning it has two flash holes (unfavorable for reloading) instead of boxer primed (single flash hole on center) Google boxer vs berdan for the history, it has a rather quirky twist. Though more foreign countries are making boxer primed ammo. it isn’t impossible to reload berdan cases but IMHO I’d rather work smarter than harder but to each their own. I’ll be posting pics maybe tomorrow at work if photobucket isn’t blocked by our I.T dept, facebook and videos are blocked. All I have at home is free dialup and uploading each pic would be insane. I use my android for most things such as this site etc but the pics are on a flash drive off site.

218. CompShooter on 14 Dec 2012 at 8:10 am #

     Inventory pics. http://s1343.photobucket.com/albums/o798/tim445/inventory

219. CompShooter on 14 Dec 2012 at 8:55 am #

     And no, i wouldn’t use the garands ,3o carbine , revolvers or the mk 2 ruger in a shtf situation considering my other options

220. Castle83 on 14 Dec 2012 at 11:29 am #

     I don’t know comp. I included my M1 carbine in the mix because it is lightweight accurate and durable. It wouldn’t be my primary carry but it would have its uses.

221. CompShooter on 14 Dec 2012 at 12:12 pm #

     I’m just saying that those wouldn’t be my first choices in a on foot one pack bugout. If I was sheltered in place a group would use all of them. Better than a pointy stick

222. Castle83 on 14 Dec 2012 at 3:17 pm #

     True enough, I was thinking base defense or quick scouting movements due to ts light weight but certainly not one I’d use in a bug out unless I had no other choice.

223. McLuvin on 14 Dec 2012 at 7:45 pm #

     The m1 carbine is a nice little package, but it’s big drawback is ammo. Too expensive and scarce to stock real heavy.

224. CompShooter on 14 Dec 2012 at 8:48 pm #

     The paratrooper version is fun to shoot folded and from the hip , I got it two yrs ago when ammo wasn’t too bad but lately its been more outrageous than 223 , but again, reloading makes it easier to afford, about .24 per round and that’s because I bought new cases. The good news is since they are straight walled and only 1900 fps they don’t stretch and get a lot of life.

225. wheelgunner on 15 Dec 2012 at 12:40 pm #

     Castle-That’s some real nice looking stock work on the M1 Carbine. What gives?

226. Castle83 on 15 Dec 2012 at 2:40 pm #

     Inherited it from my grandfather, he did all the work. I’ll post the other rifles I have with the same work soon.

227. Castle83 on 19 Dec 2012 at 1:25 pm #

     Hey I’m in the market for a good 1911. Higher price is ok, any thoughts?

228. McLuvin on 19 Dec 2012 at 9:22 pm #

     I’m selling a full custom titanium bobtail commander if you are interested.

229. wheelgunner on 19 Dec 2012 at 11:05 pm #

     Springfield armory. Mine is a peach. Would recommend them to anyone when I can remember that I have it.

     Check out the Taurus 1911 too. You get a lot of good stuff for the price. I believe that they pay a fee to the companies that make the custom parts for them in order to make them in house. Saves money on custom gunsmithing and all that.

230. wheelgunner on 19 Dec 2012 at 11:08 pm #

     If this means anything to you, even in the 1911A1 configuration, mine has converted a S&W M&P 9mm shooter and a Glock .40 shooter to .45acp 1911s.

231. Castle83 on 20 Dec 2012 at 12:20 pm #

     Thanks for the input. Ive always wanted a 1911 I’m just on the fence as to whether to get one now or just get a cheaper Glock21 that I would probably shoot better with. I’m an excellent shot with my Glock 19. Mcluvin can you post a pick and asking price?

232. Docwade on 20 Dec 2012 at 10:28 pm #

     I had a Taurus 1911…I am glad I don’t anymore.

233. McLuvin on 21 Dec 2012 at 2:08 am #

     $2100
     http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af317/tsteele1014/4163fb8cc581c35a8537725aa358ed5e.jpg

234. HangMan on 21 Dec 2012 at 9:37 am #

     Well it’s the 21st, and we’re all still alive. Woo

235. Castle83 on 21 Dec 2012 at 11:36 am #

     Very nice! To rich for my blood though.

236. wheelgunner on 21 Dec 2012 at 12:45 pm #

     Mas pistolas! Viva La Revolution!

237. Castle83 on 21 Dec 2012 at 3:13 pm #

     I’m also kicking around the idea of a sig 220 with night sights. Expensive at just over $1000 but I love sigs.

238. 3-15 INF on 21 Dec 2012 at 9:01 pm #

     you guys stopped talking about the 22lr 200 posts ago

239. HangMan on 21 Dec 2012 at 9:44 pm #

     Yeah, that tends to happen when there are swaths of time between articles. Keeps the website lively, you know?

240. CompShooter on 21 Dec 2012 at 10:31 pm #

     Yeah.lately its been a prove what you own or your a poser, lol

241. wheelgunner on 22 Dec 2012 at 2:37 pm #

     Oh, and happy “The Mayans Ran Out Of Calendar Room” day.

     I didn’t get any posts back, so I’ll ask again. Any opinion on the Ruger switchout cylinder for the Blackhawk and the Vaquero? .357 to 9mm, .45LC to .45acp.

     Been considering picking up a “vest pocket” gun. Looked at a couple of the little .22 revolvers, and a deringer in either same, or in .32acp.

242. McLuvin on 23 Dec 2012 at 12:19 am #

     The Ruger Convertibles are good guns. Switching cylinders is fast and easy. Like all Rugers they are very solid and reliable. The ability to shoot cheaper ammo out of your .45LC is kind of cool.

243. TZH on 25 Dec 2012 at 3:22 am #

     The Armscor XT-22 is a .22lr pistol that converts to a .45 with a simple change of the upper slide and barrel.

     https://us.armscor.com/products/xt-22-45-combo

     I think that is one heck of a good combo at a fantastic price. I’d recommend this to someone looking for their first pistol. Training with cheaper ammo is all about increased range time. I’d use the .45 configuration for home defense or human threats while the .22 can be used for training my wife and kids and for the undead.

     I agree that the .22 would help win a zombie war over an extended crisis. You don’t need a melon-blasting caliber. Having this small but potent bullet in huge quantities can win the game.

     Think about it. Carrying 1000 rounds of .22 and two guns to shoot it can be done by my grandma. If you ask her to lug your AR or shotgun w/ the same ammo count will be asking for trouble.

     Stay vigilant!

244. McLuvin on 25 Dec 2012 at 10:49 am #

     .22 conversions are nothing new. They are available for many popular guns. In my experience they are rarely as reliable as dedicated .22s.

     Also, a single stack .45 makes a poor zombie gun. You bring up the issue of ammo weight in your post. .45 weighs almost twice what 9mm does and both will punch right through a head without slowing down. The percentage of survived brain hits is minimal with both.

245. TZH on 25 Dec 2012 at 2:59 pm #

     Point taken on the reliability issue.

     I mentioned that a .45 was meant for living threats, and the .22 for zombies. Those are tiny, and carrying a rifle like a 10/22 plus loads of these ammo + a sidearm chambered in .22 should be light.

     As for brain killing power, I think this should be a sufficient caliber. A .22 punching through the head from even a pistol is convincing enough.

246. McLuvin on 25 Dec 2012 at 11:58 pm #

     Agreed, while some have doubted the effectiveness of the LR I think it would do a fine job if placed properly. Even for living threats I want to maximize my loadout. .45 is too heavy to carry a bunch of ammo.

247. Docwade on 26 Dec 2012 at 7:34 pm #

     “but ur so big”.

248. McLuvin on 26 Dec 2012 at 9:53 pm #

     Carrying heavy ammo

     Ain’t nobody got time for that!

249. wheelgunner on 26 Dec 2012 at 10:02 pm #

     One more line, and we could have a haiku. I still think that you can carry as much .45 as you can shoot in a standard bugout bag.

250. CompShooter on 26 Dec 2012 at 10:58 pm #

     Three phases equals a haiku I thought.

     I would carry my 45 as backup and 22 suppressed and my bushmaster carbine in a on foot medium bugout bag situation . If I shelter in place or leave in the truck dictates different loadouts

251. wheelgunner on 26 Dec 2012 at 11:08 pm #

     Right. Hell, I’d put all of them I had ammo for in the truck. For water travel, it’s all about them shotguns. Too close for anything else. Spit, maybe.

252. wheelgunner on 26 Dec 2012 at 11:09 pm #

     Know anything about Kings Forge steel?

     http://www.kingsforgeandmuzzleloading.com/page1

     I have been considering some of their stuff, but haven’t found any feedback.

253. CompShooter on 27 Dec 2012 at 7:31 am #

     I’ve shot a few black powder rifles but never owned one, too much work. Would like to pull the trigger on that blunderbuss just to see the pattern.

254. wheelgunner on 27 Dec 2012 at 9:40 am #

     You know that the term “coach gun” was originally coined for guns that where meant to be carried inside the coach? The big muzzle on the blunderbuss is there in part to help scare you away if you are close enough to see it.

     I have been wanting to get a flintlock musket for a while now, but can’t seem to put aside enough for one that I don’t spend on something else. They offer an interesting long term strategy opportunity, and I think that they would be fun to shoot. Lot of accessories for those things though. You can improve the reloading and speed aspect over time, as well as the reliability, with practice and time. I like the versatility of the civilian musket. And in it’s range, ain’t a damn thing that can do much arguing with a couple hundred grains of 20 gauge plus sized lead whistling towards you.

255. 3-15 INF on 27 Dec 2012 at 9:45 am #

     I guess firearm choices for me have changed as I’ve been exposed to new products and what I think I’d run into or need for the moment. I’ll only list guns I have at the moment.

     1. Walther p22, 5 mags on cross draw at left hip with YHM mite 22. suppressor. Quiet ambush weapon or for shooting from a protected barricade at less than 25 meters.

     2. Glock 19 9mm, 3 mags in serpa holster on right hip. For rapid draw at targets less than 25 meters if my rifle is not accessible or is down with a stoppage or dry.

     3. Ruger 10/22 take down with 3 bx 25 mags in pack- great survival rifle and concealable on the move.

     4. Bravo Company M4 with Acog 3x, 2 20 rd mags on rifle (one in butt stock pouch and one in mag well), BCM 03 blue force chest rig with 4x 30 rd mags (under shirt or jacket to hide). Might have this broken down in pack also.

     5. Remington R700 .308 SPS Tactical with 3x 10 rd mags, Mcree folding stock, and Leupold MK 4 m2 3.5-10x scope. Can fold down to 32″. Also have HYM phantom mounts on both center fire rifles so I can mount my YHM .30 caliber suppressor on either center fire rifle. This gun would usually be concealed in a pack as well.

     Just 5 guns, 3 easily obtainable calibers. Could fight, survive or evade with any combination of them. I already own all of them, though it took me 4 years to afford it all. I’ve changed some guns out over time, but I’m pretty confident with those 5 for 99 percent of anything I would ever run into on the planet. I also have a good tomahawk and a couple of good fighting knives for up close work.

     I do have backups, though they aren’t my first choices-

     1. .38 5 shot snubbie- fast as hell to draw and decent power for the short range.

     2. Ruger 10/22 target- heavier and longer, but with a 10x scope, its accurate to 150m

     3. .30 carbine with assorted 15 and 30 rd mags. Have alot of ammo stored up as a rifle for my wife or sons. Decent accuracy and power up to 150m and a great home defense gun.

     4. Taurus PT92 9mm with taclight- my bedside gun. Heavy, accurate and reliable but not a great carry gun. have alot of mags for it though.
     I have a little redundancy and you should always have backups/stash weapons.

     My strategy is probably to hold up until I absolutely had to move, then I would only move until I found a good place to hold up again. Family only, no large groups of strangers or friends (they can visit but not stay). Don’t get married to favorite weapons, as they come and go. Keep weapons as concealable as possible, don’t attract attention, wear civilian non camouflaged clothes. Only engage what is a threat, conserve ammo, shoot well under my max range. Think insurgent. Travel light and fast and only use vehicles when bugging out to next hide. Any thoughts?

256. 3-15 INF on 27 Dec 2012 at 9:47 am #

     sorry, 4 calibers, i guess

257. wheelgunner on 27 Dec 2012 at 10:19 am #

     I like it. There are only two real ways to go about it, and it’s either under the radar, or blowing it up.

     Looks like a good firearm selection. I personally would take one or two less firearms and one or two more melee/bladed tools, but that’s preference. Personally, I’d take either the M4 or the .308, depending on which one I was either more comfortable with, or which one better fit the area I’ll be traveling through. The bolt gun would look less tactical too, or at least be more covert than the M4. I would also pack the .38, in an ankle or in my pack, if I had the room. Up your chances of easy ammo, and pistol is more plentiful and maybe easier to trade for than more precious longarm rounds. I like the Take Down. I would add any 10 round mags for it you have, in case you need the lower profile, and in the event that you don’t need the magazine sticking off the end in close quarters. Just some ideas.

     I will agree with you one the Taurus pt92. Great for a lot of things, but not the best carry. Lot of things changed since they came out. What type of tomahawk do you have? I’m in the market and looking for feedback.

258. wheelgunner on 27 Dec 2012 at 12:54 pm #

     Have also been considering a Lyman No. 2 Tang Sight. Any opinions?

259. McLuvin on 27 Dec 2012 at 6:16 pm #

     Pretty good selection of guns, 3-15. A little much for carrying, but you could easily move them from hideout to hideout. I’m not a P22 fan, but if yours works, it’ll do. I’d want more mags for all guns. I’ve always been kind of a mag whore. Suppressors are an often overlooked accessory. I think more people should have them. Especially for zombies.

     If you want a tang sight, the Lyman is a good choice, Wheelgunner. I also agree that a few 10rd 10/22 mags could be handy.

260. wheelgunner on 27 Dec 2012 at 7:10 pm #

     Is it worth getting the tang sight? I actually prefer the buckhorn they come with as my standard sights for a longarm. I’m not sure that the perceived advantage of the tang sight would be worth the effort in actuality.

261. CompShooter on 27 Dec 2012 at 7:26 pm #

     Just went to a gun show last weekend (600 tables) outside Detroit. Stripped AR lowers that were $150 are now $550 – $600 ( various makes ). Complete uppers are still $400-$650 depending on length and various configurations. 30 rd mags sold out the signs said $50. People going nuts either hoping to make money later or just getting them to have. Seen this all before in 94.

262. McLuvin on 27 Dec 2012 at 8:11 pm #

     Compshooter- yes people are going nuts again.

     Wheelgunner- the tang sight is a big improvement for accuracy. Buckhorns are a little course for real accuracy.

263. wheelgunner on 27 Dec 2012 at 8:17 pm #

     Some advantages to old tech.

264. Leatherneck on 27 Dec 2012 at 8:37 pm #

     I’m going to build me a “zombie” gun. What are some recommended accessories or upgrades for the basic carbine? Remember, I have a very tight budget but I can spread out my purchases over time.

265. Leatherneck on 27 Dec 2012 at 8:38 pm #

     I forgot to mention, I’m starting with a basic carbine 10/22.

266. wheelgunner on 27 Dec 2012 at 8:55 pm #

     Folding stock and light are two that I like. Illuminated optics are popular. I would look for iron night sights. Magazines. Foregrip? You can run it like one of those funny pistol rifles in a pinch. Multi position sling? At least a detachable paracord sling. Multi use. Suppressors seem to be a favored upgrade.

     Speed loader for clips. I’ve seen them before. Maybe a small MOLLE/ALICE whoeversheis pack for backups and cleaning kit. The bull barrels with the grooves are nice.

267. wheelgunner on 27 Dec 2012 at 9:02 pm #

     Ruger mags are supposed to be the best by a landslide.

268. McLuvin on 27 Dec 2012 at 10:04 pm #

     A standard 10/22 will run great right out of the box. The first accessory to spend money on is a decent scope. Then get some extra mags. Factory 25s are good, as are Steel Lips. AR type stocks, foregrips, rails, etc. don’t add any real usability. They are the accessories people who don’t shoot buy to look cool.

269. Leatherneck on 27 Dec 2012 at 10:21 pm #

     Thanks for the recommendations. I agree about the tacticool look, it doesn’t impress me. I am considering an aftermarket stock with an adjustable butt. I want my grandson to be able to shoot it, too. Any suggestions?

270. 3-15 INF on 28 Dec 2012 at 9:04 am #

     @ wheelgunner- yeah I wouldn’t carry all of my guns at once of course. It would mission dependent. I’d stay light most of the time. One handgun and a rifle broken down in a pack. I don’t carry alot of mags because I’m not going to be in a protracted fight. If I’m using alot of ammo, that means I’m allowing the enemy to set the conditions.
     I’ve got a cold steel pipe hawk that’s pretty devastating and a SOG too. Both are inexpensive and effective. Some people think tomahawk and imagine throwing it. I carry mine stuffed in my belt forward of my sidearm. I can draw it one handed and let it slide in my grip as i swing it, letting the head strike the target quickly. It’s pretty fast and hits hard. Weather someone gets hit by the head, the hammer end (the cold steel) or the spike (SOG) it’s gonna take out a chunk of skull.
     I’m thinking of adding a modern flintlock to my arsenal and getting good at. The Lyman Great Plains Rifle looks good and I can make my own ammo. Accurate out to 300 meters and hits like a freight train. Whatcha think?

271. wheelgunner on 28 Dec 2012 at 6:34 pm #

     My original preference for a muzzleloader was the 1853 Enfield rifle-musket. .58 caliber Minie Ball will carry a lot of pain a long distance. The Enfield trials for the originals talked about the arsenal sergeants hitting targets at over a thousand yards.

     I found a Mountain Man book written in the fifty’s or sixty’s by a park ranger, talking primarily about about the firearms that they carried with them when out about the country. He talked about shooting vintage .52 caliber Hawken rifles at fifty and one hundred yards, and being able to cover 3 shots on target with a quarter.

     I can tell you the the Muzzleloading Shooting organization, whatever it’s called, holds annual shoots that go out nearly a thousand yards.

     I have looked at the Lyman. I have put some hard thought into a Cabelas Blue Ridge flintlock in .45 or .50. Can’t make up my mind whether I like the Plains style better or not. Or, whether to get a rifle of a musket.

     On the chance that you haven’t yet, you should check this out.

     http://www.dixiegunworks.com/default.php?cPath=22_92_186_190

     Dixie Gun Works is kind of the name in muzzleloading, and you can find competitive pricing and feedback.

     A couple of things that I can worn about. Make sure you only get the proper sized balls, wadding, and be sure to watch out for what type of powder goes into the gun, and how long the powder has been open. A salesman ruined my Enfield by tricking me into using a too course grain powder for it, and sold me some patches that where too large, for balls that where too small. Ended up rusting to inglorious death in the shed, ball permanently lodged down the barrel. Research and invest in tools for when the gun fails to fire. It will happen. Be sure and get good accessories. Powder horn, belt pouches, possible bags may look quaint, but they where an integral part of the weapon system, the same as magazines and MOLLE vests are today. They take the weapon from a cumbersome piece of junk to a valued item you feel confident in.

272. wheelgunner on 28 Dec 2012 at 6:44 pm #

     I do like the long drop on the Lyman Great Plains stock. I have handled one very similar to the Deer Stalker, and found that the sights on those types tend to be very hard to see from the angle of the shallower drop. I’m a big fella, and I have more trouble with that than some, but I can see down a .22Lr faster and easier than with one of those.

     The nontraditional designs are geared towards modern stand hunting, and thus the manufactures adjust the balance and positioning of things like that to be easier to use in a stand, where the ease of sight acquisition isn’t as important as being easy to bring up and set across a post. That’s my take on it at least. They could just be sloppy.

273. CompShooter on 28 Dec 2012 at 6:54 pm #

     My thoughts on black powder weapons are that they are often unreliable in moisture conditions, (flint lock external ignition ) but regardless the design are heavy and at best good for one shot before becoming a club. At times at the range during primitive comps , flints break and powder fouled the frizzen /flash pan and flash hole rather quickly. If talking about years down the road after shtf , id be into crossbows and edged weapons as sole primary weapons but not before I exhaust my centerfire reloading equipment. IMO

274. wheelgunner on 28 Dec 2012 at 7:17 pm #

     Traditionally, you carry a specific wallet that has MOLLE style pockets for spare flints, or something like it. I did forget to mention it, but flints do work best when sharpened a certain way, but this is a really good way to branch off into flint knapping, which is a primary form of finding flints without a market around, as well as for making blades of various sorts.

     You would also traditionally carry a vent pick with you, often with a whisk attached for you to brush out the pan to keep it clean. One, two itty bitty tools that most people don’t take the time to learn about that make a world of difference.

     What is everyones fascination with the crossbow? Is it because it looks like a gun?

275. wheelgunner on 28 Dec 2012 at 7:24 pm #

     Soldier of the American Revolution, by Denis Hambucken and Bill Payson.

     It’s a ridiculously thin book printed on full color paper that runs like $11, gives a good, concise overview of the militia man and his kit, with a paragraph or so of clear explanation as to why it was carried and at least an idea of how it was used. I recommend it to people thinking of getting into black powder. It covers a lot of little things that people either forget, or don’t understand to begin with. It’s a good place to start.

276. wheelgunner on 28 Dec 2012 at 8:09 pm #

     If you are interested in a pistol or musket, here is a link I scoped out a while back. They also have blunderbusses.

     http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/index.shtml

277. CompShooter on 28 Dec 2012 at 9:48 pm #

     I say crossbow because yes it is a familar firing platform though balistics are different. They have them now where you take off the upper reciever of a AR and replace it with a crossbow setup . I wouldn’t dismiss a compound bow but not my first choice of the two since you have to draw then maintain a draw tension even though it breaks (unless you have a trigger mech. ) and you have to be at least kneeling to fire . Modem crossbows are compound as well .

278. wheelgunner on 28 Dec 2012 at 10:08 pm #

     I have an almost total disregard for the compound bow. Once you understand traditional archery, its a crock. Even traditional crossbows are better than a modern one in almost every category.

     And what do you mean you have to be kneeling?

279. wheelgunner on 28 Dec 2012 at 10:20 pm #

     What is familiar about a crossbow? It has a trigger and a stock? And, are we talking solely compound crossbows, or crossbows in general, because you guy are going to have to start specifying for me. It’ll make this a lot easier.

280. 3-15 INF on 29 Dec 2012 at 1:01 am #

     I already have a Pedersoli Brown Bess flintlock that fires .68 cal balls that my dad left me. Have hit out to 200 on a man sized target. What I really want is something along the lines of a Kentucky Long Rifle, probably in .50 Cal with better . The only reason these didn’t use a minie balls is they hadn’t been invented. Loaded with a minie ball, you extend the range tremendously. I can make the balls with a mold and tire balancing weights, but producing the powder would be an entirely different animal.
     i do like the Hawken style rifles, similar to a German Jager Rifle. I want to stick with flintlock so I don’t have to rely on a percussion cap supply. I have thought about a crossbow, too, even though a rifle has much longer range. A flintlock rifle would be a huge advantage if you were one of the only ones left with a functioning firearm.

281. wheelgunner on 29 Dec 2012 at 1:32 am #

     When I got my takedown recurve, I was on the prowl for a flintlock. They just happened to be sold out of muzzleloaders when I got there, and the price on the bow was too good to pass up.

     For long term shtf, I really do prefer the longbow. As always, I’m working on learning how to make them from scratch. The gun does punch through brush better than an arrow, and it does it’s damage in a different manner. Firearms just take a certain level of civilization to operate in, as do crossbows. One that we may not have.

     I have a book on gunpowder around here somewhere I need to reexamine. It hand a lot of good knowledge on how it used to be made and whatnot.

     I have considered trying to put a flintlock together from scratch before. The individual parts can be found, and you can be sure to get exactly what you are looking for out of it. Just a little outside my skill range at present, but I’m catching up on it. The custom ones are expensive, but you seem to get what you pay for in one. Traditionally, each person has one, and they run it to the grave. There is something to be said for that as well. Don’t see it very often anymore.

     Compound bows rely too much on gimmicks. That oh so loved break in them means that up until the string returns to the point where the it broke over, its not receiving any real acceleration from the cams. They are overly complex, with a lot more that can malfunction. They are useless when broken. The strings and stringing are too long and complex to do much about should anything happen to them. The materials still deteriorate over time. Triggers are a joke.
     Bow sights are unnecessary, and limit the range of the bow. I have had serious arguments with long time bowshooters(you do not deserved to be named archers) that the maximum range of a bow, or crossbow, is not 60 feet! Ridiculous!
     They are far heavier and more cumbersome than a traditional bow. Many will split or shatter shafting material that isn’t carbon or aluminum. Modern heads for arrows and bolts are designed to either not penetrate, or become permanently stuck in or shattered by any hard target they encounter allow their flight. Carbon shafts are terrible about splintering on contact.

282. wheelgunner on 29 Dec 2012 at 1:40 am #

     I like the look of the Pedersoli Kentucky, I would really prefer to handle it first if I could. Would you recommend the Brown Bess? I saw that they have the Indian Trade Musket, doesn’t look all that bad.

283. wheelgunner on 29 Dec 2012 at 1:46 am #

     The Frontier may be better sized for me. The stock looks to be a hair longer. Love those double set triggers.

     To make sure that you are aware, the twist rate of the gun will effect whether or not it will hit the broad side of a barn with round balls vs pointed bullets. If they still carry it, the Cabelas Blue Ridge is supposed to shoot good with either, and they made a note of the twist rate change making it possible for the gun to do that.

284. CompShooter on 29 Dec 2012 at 10:15 am #

     My parents both used recurve bows in archery comps in the fifties and early sixties . Hunted with them too. But as they aged , mom cut down on going out bow hunting so much and went with a shotgun . Dads arthritis in the shoulders was bad enough that he got a compound , mind you this was the mid seventies and bow tech of that time . Later by the mid eighties he went to the shotgun . I never used a compound bow while prone nor think by common sense inclined to try . I have used a compound bow kneeling and standing only . As far as flint locks go, sure if enough time, generations have gone by that centerfire ammo have used up all reloading stocks. But for quick repeatable fire goes I would use crossbow , weather it was compound prefered or am older recurve one , seems we all had this convo sometime ago that’s why I have backup iron sights on my AR ,

285. CompShooter on 29 Dec 2012 at 6:38 pm #

     Just picked up m&p 9 pro series . I needed to replace the 9mm i sold months ago and with the impending high cap ban I moved on it. I liked the glock 34 but I have a 30sf for carry and wanted some diversity. The deciding factor was adjustable fit and price. I still like the glock reset feel better but that’s a matter of training . The glock is faster to strip but not really a deciding factofor me . Was looking at the m9 and px 4 storm but not a fan of double action first pull on a automatic .

286. wheelgunner on 29 Dec 2012 at 7:42 pm #

     I don’t like the trigger creep on striker fired autos. It’s been a deciding factor on a lot of my buys.

287. CompShooter on 29 Dec 2012 at 8:24 pm #

     My 1911, is still a favorite but the barrel axis on a striker fired is lower and less muzzle jump. Dry fire feels good, I own other striker type so I’m used to the differences but some range time tomorrow will tell me a lot.

288. wheelgunner on 29 Dec 2012 at 9:00 pm #

     Let us know how it goes. I’ve heard a lot of good things about the M&P.

289. wheelgunner on 29 Dec 2012 at 9:04 pm #

     I ran across a Ruger Super Blackhawk Bisley Hunter in a store, and I’m trying to decide on whether or not to get it. Fit my hand like a glove, liked the weight, and the balance. I’m having a hard time choosing between a new blade or two, some survival gear, and a new gun. I’ve never owned a .44, but it seemed to be a damn nice gun. Kind of intrigued by the scope mounts.

290. CompShooter on 29 Dec 2012 at 9:38 pm #

     I shot a friend’s ruger bisley .32 years ago, by then I had a couple s&w revolvers and was used to those frames better than ruger, didn’t have enough trigger time to really get used to the grip angle but was fun shooting up old cars .

291. Docwade on 30 Dec 2012 at 9:25 am #

     I’m sorry, I’ve been on vacation. Did I actually read reference to a “Howdah pistol” in this thread???

292. wheelgunner on 30 Dec 2012 at 3:54 pm #

     Yes. I believe that you did.

293. wheelgunner on 30 Dec 2012 at 3:55 pm #

     And much, much more.

294. McLuvin on 30 Dec 2012 at 5:21 pm #

     The howdah pistol isn’t as silly as the flintlocks. Apparently everyone is going to start making black powder and knapping flint after Z-day.

295. wheelgunner on 30 Dec 2012 at 6:32 pm #

     Well, Howdah’s do run the full scale from flintlock to cartridge. Seen a few originals.

296. Docwade on 01 Jan 2013 at 2:41 am #

     I’m still a firm believer that …well, you guys are off your rockers.
     It’s more of a timeline. Early on, when you have the technology ie. modern weapons, use them. You should already have them and ammo stockpiled deep. What you are able to find is just a bonus, but can’t be relied upon to be there.

     Later on, when you chance upon ammo and weapons, you’ll be stockpiling those in whatever caliber. They will be as good as gold is now for trade, defense, etc. This is the time that primitive weapons will be more useful. I’m not talking about being holed up doing a last stand but, you’ve managed to stay alive this long. You didn’t make it this far by being dumb.

     For example, you had the forethought to have more than 150 rounds of 45lc on hand for all those reproduction gunfighter rigs you’re using to “punch through brush”. You already have the FEMA recommended 30 days of food on hand because the wheels of government turn slowly already. It won’t turn any faster during a national crisis. You already have an emergency radio with crank charger and solar cell charger to recharge the batteries for the radios your group will have to maintain communication during foraging runs. The list goes on and on.

     Excluding the guys that I know shoot in competition — All you guys do is talk about how good you shoot, but your measuring stick is only yourself. Get out there an participate in competitions. It not only builds comradere, but simulates pressure, movement, reloads, weapon failures, etc. Now, back to one of my earlier posts; just how much ammo do you really have on hand?

297. TZH on 01 Jan 2013 at 3:06 am #

     @Docwade

     Before I even began talking about firearms or blogging about it, I was into competitive shooting.

     When I was not yet competing, I thought I was pretty OK. However being exposed to the very best, it opened up my own horizons and I have a more realistic assessment of myself.

     Yep, you hit it on the nail. Nothing beats competition for all the points you stated!

     IDPA, IPSC, Olympic target, it don’t matter. Get out there, make new friends, learn new things, sharpen up. Everybody wins.

     ————

     That being said, I have thousands of .40 hand loads on me, but my true survival caliber will be the .22. That I’ll be stocking up on for years to come.

     .40 is fine, especially on my competition hi-cap 1911. However just carrying 6 magazines PLUS a rifle and a bug out bag can be cumbersome.

     I’m just being realistic.

     I’m not He-Man or Rambo. A .22 setup can work. Besides, I’ve got family and other supplies to work with, and I like to move fast.

     ‘ll save my tricked out Benelli and AR for other non-as-common missions.

298. Docwade on 01 Jan 2013 at 9:45 am #

     I absolutely agree.

299. CompShooter on 01 Jan 2013 at 10:15 am #

     Ditto

300. 3-15 INF on 01 Jan 2013 at 10:41 am #

     Well, I hardly think flintlocks are silly. Like many of the guys on this site, I don’t buy my guns based on the happenstance that the dead will rise and man will revert to hunter/gatherer/pirates who roam the earth with only what’s on their backs. That might be some people’s image, but not mine.
     I like the idea of mastering as many skills as possible, have always been intrigued with the independence/ survival/ homestead lifestyle. I don’t really espouse to the thought that shooting competitions are the way to test yourself, but to each his own. The sight of dismembered bodies, human misery, the horrible things that people can do to each other and abject fear pounding in your head have a way of prioritizing what you feel you should be preparing for.
     In truth, and there are others on this site that agree with me, I see the zombie fantasy movement as a psychological attempt at acceptance at how bad it could get (e.i. Rwanda, French Revolution, Bosnia, Iraq, etc.) and what it would take to prepare oneself for it. I don’t care whether the person trying to destroy everything I have ever known is trying to kill me is motivated by hunger, angry at those who have more than they do, hate me for my race, religion or creed, or just plain lawless. I’m dead either way. I simply don’t wish to be defenseless in that kind of situation. 300 million people died of war in the 20th century, with millions more dead during “peacetime” from their own oppressive, murderous regimes. That’s a much more sobering image.
     If I’m wrong, I have a lot of fun doing things I like to do, if I’m right, I know there will be others that will be future allies. You feel me?
     Anyways, I think a bow or flintlock is very practical, especially a crossbow if hunting is illegal (punishable by death) and you need to feed your family. A tool for every need- handgun, shotgun, musket, assault rifle, bow, knife, whatever. If you feel it can protect you from the history you can see with your eyes a google search away, go for it.

301. 3-15 INF on 01 Jan 2013 at 10:50 am #

     @wheelgunner- yeah I like the Brown Bess, but remember it’s a smooth bore, so you can fire any ball/buckshot/bird shot/buck and ball mix you want. Pretty lightweight compared to my 700 loaded out. I want a rifled companion, probably in 30-50 cal range. Eventually I want a takedown modern aluminum recurve that breaks down in a pack like my Ruger 10/22.
     One thing about blackpowder guns that is interesting to me is how much of the firing process i can generate myself. I’m going to study how to make powder myself (not impossible, there’s lots of guys who do it). These guns were fired and maintained by guys who couldn’t read, often used the tail of their shirts for wadding, molded their own bullets around the campfire, and took amazingly long shots for a “primitive” weapon.

302. wheelgunner on 01 Jan 2013 at 3:09 pm #

     I recommend a PSE recurve takedown. I’ve owned three over the last couple of years, and I have never paid more than $215 for any of them brand new.

     My current model is a PSE Mustang, 55lb draw weight, and it breaks down into three sections for packing as needed. I picked it up in preference to a Fred Bear 43lb recurve that I happened across in a shed. If you are looking for a takedown, it’s the road I would go.

     I am also looking at things a little further down the line than a couple of months from now. There is no guarantee that should we even have the ability to make a “primitive” firearm, that we will be able to without a lock to go by.

     Training new shooters and maintaining old ones are going to cut into that stockpile. The ammo and the guns can go bad. You have to have a place for that stockpile, a storage method, and some type pf security for it.

303. Leatherneck on 01 Jan 2013 at 3:12 pm #

     @Docwade- I have a couple boxes each for most of my guns and a few hundred rounds for my .22s. Other than unprepared, I don’t know what that makes me.

     @3-15 INF- Black powder can be made at home, but the ingredients aren’t something you can gather in your backyard. The guys that lived by it, didn’t make it.

     I have nothing against competitions, but I know what I can hit. Comparing that to someone else changes nothing. Competitors don’t train for strategy, tactics, escape and evade or cover and concealment, and those are just the basics for survival in a hostile environment.
     After the initial threat has passed I would rely more on a traditional crossbow or longbow. Arrows and bolts are far easier to make at home. Save the good guns and ammo for emergencies.

304. McLuvin on 01 Jan 2013 at 3:18 pm #

     Making black powder while hiding from zombies/outlaws/oppressive regime is not going to be as easy as you guys seem to think. Does your hideout have access to naturally occurring sulfur, saltpeter, and charcoal? Do you know the purity of these components? Do you know the ratio to make it not fizzle or explode? Do you have a spark free grinding apparatus? These are all important things to consider.

     Whether you are talking about muzzleloaders or crossbows, I have no interest in weapons with a single shot followed by a lengthy, complicated reload.

305. wheelgunner on 01 Jan 2013 at 3:21 pm #

     According to the Louisiana Shooting Association, the competition shooting matches are in Mississippi. The nearest shooting range to me that is open is near to seventy miles away from me, and it’s a hundred yard range with five benches and two seats. Its covered in spent brass, and may be opened two random days a week if the deputy can be bothered to come by and open it up at some point.

306. wheelgunner on 01 Jan 2013 at 3:27 pm #

     McLuvin-better a slow complicated reload to not having a shot at all.

     I believe that the tradition is a large mortar and pestle. Willow is the prefer ed charcoal. The white powder/buildup in stalls and outhouses (abd just general crap), is salt peter. The Confederates in the War for Southern Independence made a world reknown factory for making powder in Georgia mid-war that was a international standard while it lasted. The South being poor in salt peter, they started a kind of Outhouse Industry collecting the stuff, if you will pardon the pun.

307. McLuvin on 01 Jan 2013 at 3:45 pm #

     If I only have one shot against multiple zombies, it might as well be none. In that situation I’d just as soon have a bat or shovel. They lack the range, but are better close-in weapons. This is a situation where the rest of the enemies are more important than the first.

308. wheelgunner on 01 Jan 2013 at 3:51 pm #

     Book: Gunpowder, by Jack Kelly. Good background on how they made powder in the old days, and some good historical talk of how it’s use effected things as time progressed. Includes the recipe, and dos and don’ts.

309. wheelgunner on 01 Jan 2013 at 3:54 pm #

     McLvin, some times you are just dense. Melee side arms are kind of a standard for primitive arms. For that very reason. Weapon system and all that.

310. Leatherneck on 01 Jan 2013 at 4:39 pm #

     McLuvin, eventually the zombies will thin out and there will be no need to carry around an arsenal 24/7.
     Nobody is implying that bows and muzzleloaders are superior to your precious high-cap guns. But they are effective and proven and easier to manufacture at home. They are useful for hunting and dealing with solo threats without attracting more. I would rather take a shot at range than wait for it to get close enough for a club. Though a club would be a good back-up.

311. McLuvin on 01 Jan 2013 at 6:26 pm #

     You guys keep talking about making muskets and archery equipment. It’s not like you can just cobble these things together in your basement. The average person could never make a functional musket and black powder if you gave them the supplies and directions. Now imagine trying to scavenge supplies and ingredients while avoiding death from living or undead enemies. Just finding the required components could prove impossible. Let alone making them work right. Archery equipment is not as complex or chemically dependent, but you can’t just grab a tree branch and start whittling. Specific woods are better for the bow or arrow shafts. The shafts have to be straight and balanced to fly right. Twine won’t last too long as a string either. This is not an easy hobby even with modern tools and no threat of death.

312. Leatherneck on 01 Jan 2013 at 7:06 pm #

     Correction, a serviceable hunting bow can be made with wood found across most of the U.S. in just a few hours with hand tools. Shafts are straightened by flexing across a hot rock. Any cotton or silk thread (raid a sewing kit) will make a bowstring. Just check the breaking strength and use enough strands. In the real world you learn to work within tolerances. A somewhat accurate bow is more than enough for a mid-sized game animal or a lone zombie. The average person is capable of doing alot of things. We just don’t care about state-of-the-art equipment or points.

313. Docwade on 02 Jan 2013 at 12:10 am #

     So, you have identified a yew, osage orange, Southern red cedar, apple or white ash pine tree to make your bow. Does that couple of hours include felling the tree, cutting the branches, transporting it, sectioning it, then cutting out a serviceable piece to make your bow? I agree that the ability to make a bow is a nice skill to have. Making arrows, also a nice skill to have. Don’t exclude all the other steps though, fletchings, usually turkey wing feather (from the same wing), napping an arrow head, sinew to secure everything and on and on.

     If you have that kind of time and resources, why aren’t you just turning your shafts on a simple lathe? You can make one of those too. It’s not hard. As a side note, the whole idea is that you are already prepared. You material resources are already in place. Why make a bow when you can have a sweet-ass, simple recurve right now. Field arrows cost what??? Give me 100, he’ll, make it 200. Don’t get me wrong, fortune does favor the prepared mind. But you will not survive having your resources of time and energy shifted toward making something you could already have.

314. wheelgunner on 02 Jan 2013 at 12:18 am #

     State of the art equipment has done me wrong on a number of occasions.

     I would like to point out, once again, that nobody was discussing putting a flintlock in every home. We where discussing it’s merits and how to properly run one in the manner being discussed.

     Bow strength and functionality is actually very easy up to around 40lbs or so from my research over the past few years. Essentially, you can just pick up a stick that will bend, and whittle up a rabbit bow. It’s a hair more complicated, but if you aren’t shooting for the moon, you can easily figure it out. Our ancestors did.

     Where specifics of wood type, grain, limb shape, etc, really start coming into play is in the area of war bows. You need a stronger, more consistent wood for a stronger, more consistent finished product that can be generaled properly, and be counted on to take out enemy armor reliably within a set distance. Optimum vs working have an entirely different context when you quit speaking of modern weapons.

     Bow building is really a culmination of subsistence wood working, cordage making, and tool making. As such, in learning to make a bow, you learn how to make a whole lot of other things that are crucial to survival.

     No, you can not do it on the run. I also do not see any of you volunteering to carry a full reloading outfit and gun smithing set on your person. It is a honest comparison of what you are arguing against each system. Even your idea to restock as you go(against an argument of same spoken against not too long ago) will not, by definition, happen without you seeking it out, and it will also still be of uncertain quality and functionality in your firearm. They are totally different, and you are out of your league if you don’t know all of this when you begin your argument.

315. wheelgunner on 02 Jan 2013 at 12:22 am #

     One of the things that started me back into wanting to make arrows is that the cheap shafts are going for $10 apiece, without heads. The heads are crap, the fletchings don’t last worth a flip, and the nocks an head inserts blow up and snap off all the time. My buffalo gun is cheaper to run than that.

316. Docwade on 02 Jan 2013 at 12:44 am #

     How much “subsistence wood working, cordage making, and tool making” have you done? How many bows have YOU made? An honest question. As a mental excercise, yes, a bow is a simple thing to make. In practice, not so much. I have made a simple yew wood bow as a child. Bow strings were a bit harder. I would still rely on a nice, store bought composite recurve that I had already stockpiled over one I have to fabricate. Why would I need full reloading outfit? Are you talking about a progressive reloader? You could get by with a hand loader if you were going that route. Why would I need a gunsmithing set and what do you think is in a gunsmithing set? I’ve built around 125 ak’s both milled and stamped receivers, a dozen ar15′s, modified saiga 12′s, broke down revolvers. You can do a lot with hand tools.

     Now back to your “won’t happen without you seeking it out” point. We are back to the timeline. It depends on where you are. But more importantly, going out to forage for supplies is time spent for an item on the big three – food. I’m not wasting time trying to make a weapon, I already have the weapon whatever it is. I have already stockpiled ammo for my weapon, be it arrows or bullets or bolts. Which takes me back to my many previous posts…how many 45lc rounds do you have?

317. McLuvin on 02 Jan 2013 at 8:01 am #

     Doc has asked, several times already, for people to give an approximate round count. No one has really stepped up except Leatherneck and he admits to having little. If none of you have taken the time to stockpile ammo for the guns you do have, how much time are we to believe you’ve spent on your bowyer skills?

318. Leatherneck on 02 Jan 2013 at 12:04 pm #

     @Docwade-I said serviceable bow, as in 30-35 lb draw. It can be made in hickory, maple or oak with a simple cloth backing. I’m no bowyer, I just use common sense.

     I know that the ideal weapon is a high-cap semi-auto, that isn’t being disputed by anyone. My question is, why the hater response to anything else? $#!t happens, would you rather go unarmed instead of picking up an inferior weapon? I might not stockpile but at least I have an open mind and more options.
     There’s more to survival than the perfect firearm. But then, I don’t stockpile so I must not know anything.

319. 3-15 INF on 02 Jan 2013 at 12:19 pm #

     I think the whole point is to be as versatile as possible, and it wouldn’t hurt to stretch your experiences a little. I like muzzle loaders because I like them and the history and ingenuity involved. I don’t shun handguns because I prefer a rifle. I don’t shun a blade because I figure I’ll never use one in violence. I definitely won’t shun a bow because I figure my stockpile of 21st century hardware will get me through anything.
     I’m a trained soldier who has been through 3 combat zones. I find this site interesting because I think the overall concept lends to some interesting survival discussions, and I logged onto it 3 years ago and found found some of the posters had a solid grasp of survival. Others, not so much. Plus, it’s been good for a chuckle (dual wielding desert eagles and all).
     I’m deployed to a country where the locals make bombs that destroy 5 million dollar vehicles in their backyard for 10 bucks. Don’t think the idea of making gunpowder or a bow is an impossibly difficult and technical task.

320. Leatherneck on 02 Jan 2013 at 12:29 pm #

     @3-15 INF – Well said and thanks for your service to your country.

321. wheelgunner on 02 Jan 2013 at 1:03 pm #

     3-15 & Leatherneck- Same.

322. wheelgunner on 02 Jan 2013 at 1:15 pm #

     Honestly? I Currently have less than 200 rounds on hand. As I stated, I shot the rest. I am trying to figure out how best to resupply, and thus I haven’t bought any since the first time you asked.

     As to my bowyer skills? They are a work in progress. For various reasons(in large part people giving me the same kind of flak that I am receiving on here), I keep running into obstacles. Translation? I have had to learn everything I know the hard way, mostly through fucking up. My skills have greatly improved, but there are things I still can’t do due to environmental/monetary/knowledge base/proper tools problems that I keep running into. I have made a few arrows, as well as some practice darts for an atlatl. Fletching is indeed a big problem. Within a close range, not all that necessary, from what I have seen. Feathers are hard to come by these days.

     To settle part of Doc’s argument. I already have several, modern bows. I have several modern arrows, with various modern heads. They are not the best for the things that I wish to do with them. The design concept is not for an all around use, and therefore sucks at most things. I’m trying to figure out the best ways to combat that.

323. Castle83 on 02 Jan 2013 at 9:16 pm #

     800 .556
     500 9mm
     400 .45
     500 .22
     400 7.62x54r (for the Mosin before you ask about the odd caliber)
     300 12 gauge (birdshot unfortunately)

     Assorted rounds of various calibers but not in bulk. I don’t have more for the same reason as some, I shoot through my stock. I am planning on buying bulk .556 and not shooting them. Anyone buy the bulk lake city stuff on cheaper than dirt? I’ve heard mixed reviews but its inexpensive.

     P.S. I just inherited a Colt 1911 series 70, pretty excited, pictures to follow!

324. wheelgunner on 03 Jan 2013 at 2:29 am #

     On the reloading and gunsmithing bit.

     Your argument for a hand loader and your hand tools. I was trying to point out that all the steps to make a firearm of the type you are talking about requires the same or more steps to manufacture an keep up as a bow. An entire industry. Bow making is the same.
     On the same token, a bowyer can take the equivalent of a basic hand loader and crafting tools and create a bow in a non factory/workshop environment, which is your argument in a nutshell.

     A point about bows that does mean a lot to me, and my survival situation. A gunshot can be heard at approximately five miles. A suppressed firearm can be heard at several hundred yards. A bow can be heard at maybe a few dozen. How far away from other survivors will you be for them not to hear one of those? Will them hearing it undermine your entire strategy? That close without a good reason will only bring down unwanted attention in my area. A bow, or other manual projectile weapon will go a lot farther in the short and long run to ensuring that my family can eat while minimizing our outside exposure as much as possible.

     Before I hear anything else on the subject, I would also like to point out a deciding factor in all of this. My environment is crap for weapons. Humidity eats everything, and what the humidity doesn’t eat, things that thrive in the humidity do.

325. McLuvin on 03 Jan 2013 at 7:54 am #

     I’ve never said that a bow is useless. Just that thinking you are going to make one while trying to not get killed/eaten is unrealistic. I think Doc would agree that having a decent bow and accessories in inventory would be handy, but then we are back to discussing prep and stockpiling. I would rather stockpile another case of .22 than a bow. Arrows are disposable. Not to the degree that ammunition is, but they don’t last forever. You can only reuse them until they break. Shooting moving headshots with varied backstops will result in many lost or broken arrows. Replacing arrows will be time and labor intensive. Trying to replace said arrows while your hideout is under siege or you are on the move scavenging could prove impossible. At the beginning of this thread you were skeptical of a .22 to the brain being effective. Will a homemade arrow from a flimsy bow do any more?

326. CompShooter on 03 Jan 2013 at 9:16 am #

     Well, for one thing comparing firearms to bows in any form is not apples to apples . They both have strenghts and weaknesses in certain situations. That’s why I believe its a matter of mission specific needs. Personally as I stated, I would use a crossbow made of synthetic / non ferrous metals to thwart off weather and environmental conditions but that’s just me. Having to construct a bow vs firearm using minimal or improvised tooling also a no brainer even if the person has little or no experience in either, the bow would be more obtainable considering the materials and complexity involved. This is of course is a level up of using a rock or a pointy stick with a blade lashed to the end. Securing the knowledge (and use) of making either in this case makes you valuable and likely have the edge. At least history proves that out.

327. Leatherneck on 03 Jan 2013 at 2:35 pm #

     @McLuvin-I live in a rural area lots of farmland, lots of woodland and few houses. I am not going to stop in front of a horde and start fashioning a bow. But it can be done in the right environment. Personally, I’d use one of my compound bows for hunting or to thin out a small group of zombies before they get close. With a little common sense any weapon can be useful. Everybody knows you stockpile and your expecting a 24/7 siege. But plans can go wrong, sometimes they can go way wrong real fast. Don’t ignore an inferior weapon just because you wish you had something better. Something better might not always be there.

328. 3-15 INF on 03 Jan 2013 at 2:38 pm #

     I would never for a minute advise anyone to be wandering homeless with a pack full of ammo and guns shooting whatever you’re threatened by, in fear of being killed or eaten, shooting all your ammo into a crowd of enemies. Is that your image of the zombie apocalypse?
     You got to have a place to rest your head and have security, cook meals, wash your ass for God sakes. It’s a marathon, not a sprint. Camp life is long and tedious, with a lot to do, but a lot of down time too. And you’d naturally be with other people, not some character from I Am Legend.
     Resources would be rationed, equipment maintained, lost or broken. Occasional moves might be necessary, but not anything you’d be looking forward to. You’d be venturing out on assorted outing outside your wire, from getting water and food, scouting for security, scrounging for useable gear or just curiosity. Running around like you’re on Call Of Duty shooting everything that moves is not survival, it’s a suicide mission. Might as well just take all that hoarded ammo, pour all the powder in a pipe, strap it your chest and detonate it. The result will be the same.

329. wheelgunner on 03 Jan 2013 at 4:34 pm #

     And I hate to break it to you Mcluvin, but check out what all arrows have and still git shot through. Not saying that I am anywhere near this good, but one of the famous archers once took down an elephant with a 55lb recurve.

     Throughout a large part of history, all bows where homemade. That includes the American Indian bows, the Mongolian horse bow, and the English longbow. Same as the arrows. You can take partially done or raw materials with you, as a standard course.

330. 3-15 INF on 03 Jan 2013 at 5:02 pm #

     As far as a “round count” I’d have to say I probably have around-
     100 rds at any time in the safe for my small handguns (.38, .380)
     40 rds 12 Gauge (#4 Buckshot)
     500 rds 9×19 Federal FMJ (124 gr ), mostly reloads
     500 rds .30 Carbine (110 gr FMJ and exposed soft core)
     100 rds 9×19 HP (124 gr Federal)
     1000 rds 5.56×45 (62 gr M855)
     300 rds 7.62×51 (168 gr GMM)
     500 rds of .22lr subsonic lead (60 gr Aguilla)
     3000 rds of Eley Target Rifle 22lr. (40gr)

     Don’t really stock up for the end of the world, tend to buy ammo twice a year. Half my range time is on duty or shooting friend’s guns.

331. McLuvin on 05 Jan 2013 at 8:38 am #

     Compshooter- The idea of fashioning a functional bow from scavenged materials with improvised tools is absurd. You may cobble something together that lasts a short while, but bows are not nearly as easy to make properly as people seem to think. The accuracy and range of a makeshift bow would be measured in feet. It would fail in short order and leave you defenseless until you fashion something else. The crossbow is also way too slow for a defensive weapon. Just because Daryl on The Walking Dead can reload his really fast(off camera), doesn’t mean you can too.

     Leatherneck- It sounds like you live in an ideal environment to make it through a zombie shitstorm. Your environment may afford you more time and materials to make a bow, but it will still be a homemade cobble job unless you have specific knowledge and equipment. Once again, the crossbow is a good hunting tool for deer and such, but it is not a good weapon for the situation on the table.

     3-15- I wholeheartedly agree that you need a safe base of operations. I’ve never advocated traveling far on foot. That falls right in line with my hoarders mentality. Why leave behind all my guns, ammo, food, and water? I plan on staying put until it’s time to move to a fallback location. In that instance everything of value gets loaded up and hauled along.

     Wheelgunner- Of course we can discuss the random huge animals that get killed with our preferred weapon. 2000# cows get killed with .22lr all the time yet you think it won’t kill a human/zombie. Of course an arrow will destroy a human brain! I was mocking your previous comment that a .22 could zip right through without doing any damage.
     Of course all bows were homemade for thousands of years. They were also made by people who had been trained from an early age in design and construction. People who had figured out exactly what to do over generations of trial and error. Reading a book on it will not instill hat ability in the average person. Nor will it make the proper materials grow in your yard.

     3-15- You are definitely better stocked than most, but you are lean on some important calibers there. I also don’t stock for the apocalypse. I buy ammo in bulk because I shoot a bunch. I know when we have a shortage of ammo or a price hike(like now) that I have plenty to last me. The side benefit is that I will always be stocked up for a SHTF situation.

332. 3-15 INF on 05 Jan 2013 at 11:12 am #

     Well, .40 wouldn’t be a bad caliber to have, and so with 7.62×39 but I don’t own guns in those calibers anymore, and I don’t think I’ll be buying them just so I can stock up on them. If I decide to start trying bow hunting next season in Kentucky, I believe I will buy one, maybe two.

     I agree that making arrows and bows is a last ditch effort. Yet, I don’t feel you’d lack time. I know that staying in hiding, doing camp work and guard shifts gives plenty of time to work on things, though (no tv to watch, ya know?) It would prob be a better idea to get decent with one for a while and own one than to make one ( a cheap PSE recurve is a good bow and only cost a little over 100 bucks, for God sakes) If you’re gonna spend money on a gun or ammo, a bow and some arrows would be nothing.

     A crossbow is an ambush weapon, not something you would count on for a second shot. Yet it is a quiet fight opener for a guy who maybe possesses a firearm or blade who wants some silent distance between him and the danger of getting hurt. Not a terrible weapon as long as you use the right tactic (have a barrier between you and the target) or only have to hit one enemy, because your buddies have the rest.
     Again, I don’t see being totally alone in a crisis situation. One guy with a .22, bow or crossbow, etc. would be an asset in a group, not a liability. Yeah, a flintlock would suck against AK’s, but 5 or 6 guys firing at an approaching group that has little or no firearms at a safe distance of 100 m would work. Especially if they decided not to pick up “inferior” firearms they found in favor of bats or shovels. Massing and overlapping fields of fire kinda negate lack of firepower. Think of 12 people shooting at you from a concealed position with ballistic protection like a wall with 10/22′s. That’s at least a hundred rounds on your group in 10 seconds. That would straight up suck. Sure I’d rather have 240B’s, but you take what you can get.

333. 3-15 INF on 05 Jan 2013 at 11:20 am #

     BTW, with a crappy single shot crossbow, maybe I’d shoot the lone, wandering guy with the huge pack and 5 assault rifles, shotgun, and dual wield pistols with the sword on his back in the chest and take HIS shit.

334. HangMan on 05 Jan 2013 at 12:26 pm #

     @3-15

     Jesus finally someone with some sense. That’s the exact guy I want to avoid looking like! I want to be that guy that looks like he probably has so little, it’s not even worth the effort. I’d rather be viewed as pathetic, under stocked, and unworthy than have someone go “Holy shit he’s packing, there’s 5 of us and one of him.” That’s just not a good scenario.

335. wheelgunner on 05 Jan 2013 at 12:47 pm #

     Speaking of finding bow wood in your front yard, guess what I found about dark last night? A seasoned log with straight grain that looks like I can make a bow or two out of. Off to one side in my yard. If it works, I’ll post pictures and comments.

     My prepping buddy is planning on bringing a crossbow out sometime soon, and we are going to test it out against my recurve. Curious as to how it’s going to turn out.

     McLuvin-I follow what you are trying to tell me. On the same token, sitting back and not reading a book and saying that something is impossible is way easier, and does far less to support your argument.

     You are saying that survival bows never work? Ever? That you cannot fashion a tool good enough to see you to the next one if you had to? That is what you have been saying.

     I’ve known a bunch of poachers that hunt whitetail and wild boar with a Benjamin Air Rifle. Just make eye shots. There is a big difference between killing an animal in a hunt, and sticking a barrel to it’s head while the stupid thing just looks at you.

     Without studying up on how those people designed and built there equipment, however will you know how to build them when put in a similar situation? What will you do when its just you, and what you can make, and you don’t know enough to even start. You have doomed yourself to failure before you have even started.

     Does anybody have plans for people who don’t know how to shoot? Its one of the things that has been nagging at me.

336. 3-15 INF on 05 Jan 2013 at 1:08 pm #

     Sure! In fact if you have a family group, you are going to have people you don’t even want anywhere near the fray. I’d much rather have my wife taking off with the kids, or driving. I would also rather hope to keep the shooting away from the base during scouting missions, than wait till trouble comes to my hideout.
     I know we talk alot about weapons and ammo and such, but most people here have at least a few ideas they have been voicing. I like the ideas of multilayer defense, improvised early warning devices, barriers, vehicle roadblocks, IED’s, homemade claymores (HME is stupid easy to make and set off), barricades, heavy, medium caliber and light caliber firearms, arrow firing weapons, and sidearms. All please.
     Non shooters could easily help with building those things, process explosives, cook food, wash clothes, generate power, watch the kids and tend to the sick and injured. In fact many people would rather do that than risk injury in a fight. I would still train them to fire the light weapons like .22′s so they could at least fend off an attack at short range.

337. CompShooter on 05 Jan 2013 at 2:01 pm #

     @ 3-15 & Hangman,
     Yes. That’s it

     @McLuvin
     My statements were exactly for situations where if I found myself without or lost everything I would fab up something to get a better weapon. A makeshift bow is not the destination merely a step up . The one who can arise back from the middle ages the quickest will have the advantage always . I agree about the crossbow but making bolts is simple , go to any hardware to get dowell rods and thin plastic for fletching. Not high quality but so what, I’m not using either systems as a main weapon and only temporary.

338. wheelgunner on 05 Jan 2013 at 3:12 pm #

     Compounds do not shoot natural material arrows. Don’t forget.

339. CompShooter on 05 Jan 2013 at 3:38 pm #

     If I’m making a bow or crossbow it would be recurve only. And that would be after considering a pike

340. 3-15 INF on 05 Jan 2013 at 8:44 pm #

     Found a PSE Stalker recurve for 129$ online- get a dozen arrows for with armor penetrating heads for another 100$. Add a quiver, some string silencers, extra strings, hell even a pin site and your looking at less than a cheap .380 pistol. Sounds like it’s not a bad idea.

341. Leatherneck on 05 Jan 2013 at 8:59 pm #

     And more enjoyable than a cheap .380.

342. McLuvin on 05 Jan 2013 at 9:17 pm #

     You’d be much farther ahead buying that than trying to make one. The only downside is the limited number of arrows.

343. 3-15 INF on 05 Jan 2013 at 9:18 pm #

     alot easier to make arrows than a good bow

344. Castle83 on 06 Jan 2013 at 4:18 pm #

     @3-15 INF Well said regarding a group dynamic. I think a lot of people on this site get caught up with the “lone soldier” mentality (a well armed and supplied person taking on the world). But what people fail to realize is that you need a support structure to survive.

     I see myself with a group of family and friends in a secure area, with high walls and good lines of sight. I see a support structure that makes the food, refills the magazines, reloads rounds if the equipment is available. Trained shooters to defend, scout, resupply, and train the inexperienced how to defend themselves.

     Obviously this is an ideal situation that you may fall short of achieving depending on how bad shtf. But I think there’s more to survival than being the best trained with the best toys. Half of the fun of this discussion is to figure out how you would survive with what you have. Even if it means building home made bows or using flintlocks. I sure as shit would use everything in my arsenal even if it wasn’t perfect.

     Though I do agree that if you plan on using a bow in a survival situation, your better off buying a modern setup for cheap before hand. Doesn’t mean you couldn’t create a makeshift one later for another member of your group.

345. 3-15 INF on 06 Jan 2013 at 8:52 pm #

     yeah really, the chaos of whatever the initial shock would wear itself out and the multifamily group or “tribe” would be the normal arrangement. Those that couldn’t hang with that would die easily by themselves.

346. Leatherneck on 06 Jan 2013 at 9:17 pm #

     I have family and friends in the area that would not be considered shooters. But have skills and abilities that would be essential for long term survival. I wouldn’t even think about going alone.

347. McLuvin on 06 Jan 2013 at 11:57 pm #

     We have some people who are very adamant about group survival, but I don’t recall anyone talking about surviving alone. I don’t know anyone who would deny friends and family a place in the group(assuming they have some applicable skill). I for one hope to get my whole group together at our first safe haven as soon as possible. Having others you can rely on would be vital to survival. Hell, I don’t even think of myself as the leader of my group necessarily. I know when to put pride aside and follow orders.

348. Leatherneck on 07 Jan 2013 at 4:35 pm #

     “a place in the group (assuming they have an applicable skill)” Sounds kind of cold. Are the lawyers on their own? What exactly were you trying to say?

349. McLuvin on 07 Jan 2013 at 6:02 pm #

     I said what I was trying to say. Some people have nothing to offer. My 85 year old grandmother brings nothing to the table. My diabetic friend would die soon anyway. My sister and brother in law have zero skills that would prove useful in a survival situation. You can only feed and house so many people so being choosy is necessary.

350. Leatherneck on 07 Jan 2013 at 6:30 pm #

     Ok. Thanks for clarifying.

351. 3-15 INF on 07 Jan 2013 at 8:16 pm #

     YOU may not recall anyone talking about surviving alone, but when people are saying “you won’t be able to do this, or that”, they are relying on the idea of being alone. The assumption has to be relied on to make statements to the effect that only a rapid fire, high capacity weapon can be the right weapon to “prepare” for. Like one person will all of a sudden have to make the decision to shoot 200 people or something. If you were assuming the person was gonna be in a group, a bow, revolver or any other weapon wouldn’t sound so ridiculous. But in a Call Of Duty, me against the world vision, of course, go for the ray gun, huh?

352. wheelgunner on 07 Jan 2013 at 8:41 pm #

     Only if you already have the Nog. Ha!

353. McLuvin on 07 Jan 2013 at 11:05 pm #

     How do you make the leap from “this weapon is not suited to the task at hand” to “I’m going to run around like Rambo and kill all the zombies by myself”? Even if I have 100 people in my group, I’d rather they were all armed with high capacity semi-autos than bows or flintlocks. Some of you have this delusional fascination with primitive weapons that you will back without logical argument. My point has been and will continue to be, that stocking modern weapons and ammo now is better than trying to make primitive, less effective weapons after the shit goes down.

354. wheelgunner on 07 Jan 2013 at 11:58 pm #

     What about stocking up on them beforehand? Why not obtain a level of competence before you need it? Why not have a stock of both at the ready?

     The people that you keep pointing fingers at are wondering what you and yours have against being more prepared in different situations than an ideal one?

     What you are failing to understand is that we are not saying screw hi caps and whatnot, just saying that they are not always ideal/affordable/available for the task at hand.

     A point that I would like to make now, to the entire audience.

     Primitive is defined as the earliest stage of an evolution, or the rough thereabouts. A bow, flintlock, Ar-15 platform, nuclear ballistic warhead, are not primitive. Some have come out after others, some are improvements (in a particular way or for a particular setting), but NONE are truly primitive.

     A weapon that can be made by hand, of natural materials is not MAKESHIFT. It is manufactored in a non-idustrial setting. Makeshift would be a weapon or tool crafted for short term use, and of improper or flawed design or materials. Hand or Homemade does not automatically preclude that outcome, and I am slowly taking a higher level of offense to the terms being used interchangeably.

     Each weapon and weapon system, and associated tactics, each have their place and favorers. If we are going to discuss the pros and cons of the systems, can we please not keep doing it in the manner of zoo monkeys throwing stool at one another.

     McLuvin and Such- If you can show me a weapons system in the criteria that I have stated in the configuration that you are pushing, I would like to be informed of it. I would gladly switch sides for ideal weapons land. I am afraid that I will not happen.

355. wheelgunner on 08 Jan 2013 at 12:07 am #

     Remember one very important fact when you are dealing with life, because it is as true in general as it is when discussing warfare and zombies.

     It only takes one.

356. Leatherneck on 08 Jan 2013 at 7:28 am #

     Everybody agrees to what the ideal weapon system is. I applaud you for stockpiling and being ready for when the shit goes down. But myself and others are preparing for when the shit goes down then our plans fall apart. What would you do in this scenario? Your traveling out of town and stop at a restaurant for a quick bite when it hits the fan. You head out the door and find a horde between you and your vehicle so you have to head in the other direction. How prepared are you?
     Myself, I head for the hills. When I get to realitive safety I can fashion weapons to augment what little I will be carrying. What would you do without your precious high-cap rifle?

357. McLuvin on 08 Jan 2013 at 8:50 am #

     Wheelgunner- Your lesson on definitions doesn’t help your case much. Obviously I was using the term primitive to mean inferior. There is no argument that a homemade bow is better than an AR-15 or even a 10/22. “Makeshift” is exactly the type of weapon you have been describing. Anything you are cobbling together from scavenged components is the very essence of makeshift. As I’ve stated several times already, you can’t count on finding proper components to fashion bows or muskets as you have mentioned. They are also not easy to make properly. You will get limited use and functionality out of your homemade arms. As for stocking components early, I’ve advocated that from the beginning. Having a professionally made archery setup could be useful, but it will be a short lived tool. Arrows are not cheap. Assuming you spend a couple hundred dollars and get two dozen complete arrows, you will get maybe 10 shots per arrow. While arrows can last a long time shooting targets, they have a much shorter life in the field. Between loss and damage you’d be lucky to get 250 shots. For that same prepping investment you could get a case of .22lr. That’s over 5,000 shots vs. around 250! A musket would be even harder to make so having one in inventory would be the only real option. It is a worse choice than a bow in some ways. It has more range and would be easier for a novice to use than a bow, but it would be much louder(obviously) and dependent on conditions(a bow works better in the rain). Components for a flintlock are readily available, but once again the money and space could be better used on real ammo.

     Leatherneck- In our scenario I go the opposite direction, get a vehicle, and circle around the horde to my home. If I can’t make it home I go to my groups meeting point. If that is not an option I head west to my reserve fallback point. All three locations are stocked with weapons and ammo. If need be I can fashion a club or spear out of most anything around.

358. Docwade on 08 Jan 2013 at 8:54 am #

     @wheelgunner
     I don’t intend on changing your mind. There is no benefit in it. Your logic is flawed.

     @Leatherneck
     Most people in the situation you described are not going to survive. It’s winter. You are now in hostile territory without supplies, current weapon, shelter and without a group support system. You are now “lone rangering” it, and those people tend not to survive with a horde on their butt.

359. Docwade on 08 Jan 2013 at 9:02 am #

     On a side note, anyone here know if you can headspace a PKM barrel with mosin nagant gauges?

360. wheelgunner on 08 Jan 2013 at 11:52 am #

     Leatherneck-I for one would not be leaving that diner without taking some shit with me. So long as I’ve got my pocket knife, I think that I stand a fighting chance.

     McLuvin-Where do you get the idea of the components being scavenged? I already own most or all of the tools required to make a bow. The bare minimum isn’t much.

     Harvesting supplies from nature is not scavenging, especially not in the sense you are using it. You also seem to have a weird idea that you can only stockpile modern components. Why? Where do you get the idea that a few hundred dollars comes out at just a few arrows? I could get way more “complete” arrows for that amount, that stand up better.

     I still want to hear what is wrong with learning a different skill that may come in handy one day, zombies or no zombies.

     Where you aware that the really expensive bows made today are crafted of you “makeshift” style by people in there garages and in there back yards? That over a certain(relatively low) poundage, the only way to get a stronger wood bow is to make it yourself or commission one?

361. wheelgunner on 08 Jan 2013 at 12:02 pm #

     I would also like to point out that I advocate a person wanting a flintlock to get one that will function properly. If you don’t like them, I do not believe that you where invited into the conversation. Of course they are not hicap semiautos. They are a step up for a man with a rock.

     Your entire argument is based in the realm of PEOPLE CANNOT LEARN TO DO NEW THINGS. It’s imbecilic. No, a raving lunatic and an uninformed person probably couldn’t figure out which end to hold. So, stop being uninformed. It’s that simple. You are standing on a precipice of unknowing, calling the informed fools for not seeing things as you do from where you are.

     I do not and have never believed that every person should have or can use a flintlock. I pointed out that I prefer the bow because it takes a lower level of civilization to make. Not that I can make a musket, not that he can, but that some person in the civilization can. Maybe they will become that person. You didn’t create every part of you rifle and cartridges. It doesn’t stop you from using them until they break. I is the same thing, just with a firearm that can more easily be repaired and replicated by hand, should it be necessary, or wanting to be done.

362. Castle83 on 08 Jan 2013 at 12:42 pm #

     @Mcluvin Who cares if they want to learn to make bows? Sure it’s not as effective as a 10/22 and a brick of 5k rounds. But not everyone wants a 10/22, or ar-15 or hi-cap pistol, or a saiga or other perfect zombie slaying weapon. People are only going to buy what they like and gravitate to what skills they enjoy because most people won’t buy a ton of shit specifically for the end of the world, they buy it for more practical reasons(fun can be practical).

     Coincidentally I agree with you on most of your weapon choices and tactics. But, and I’ll steal heavily from walking dead here, “all your calls have been the right ones, its your presentation that’s the problem” Maybe if you didn’t treat people’s ideas with such utter disstain they would be more apt to listen to what you have to say. Just food for thought.

363. Leatherneck on 08 Jan 2013 at 1:45 pm #

     @McLuvin. I think you finally agreed with me. Fashioning a club or spear or any weapon to aid in your survival is a skill that can be learned in the preparing stage. It doesn’t hurt to know how and if you never have to use it, that’s fine.
     @Docwade. “Lone rangering” long term I agree is almost impossible. But for the short term, like a day or two to get to McLuvins stockpiles (sorry), is possible if your prepared for that possibility.

364. Docwade on 08 Jan 2013 at 4:24 pm #

     True, but running into a woodline in the midst of winter is a no-go. I’d rather use my ccw to try to fight to my car so I can get to my stockpiles.

365. Leatherneck on 08 Jan 2013 at 5:49 pm #

     “Head for the hills” is a figure of speech. It means to get out of the area. I didn’t realize you people were so literal.
     Of course the goal is to get to your prepared area by any means. My point is your ccw has limited ammo. Why not prepare the skills to give yourself options. Its an apocalypse, cars run out of gas, roads get blocked, other drivers run red lights, anything can happen. If your survival plan only includes your stockpile, your chances of survival are greatly diminished.

366. Docwade on 08 Jan 2013 at 6:54 pm #

     No one said you should not have other skill sets. But most people on here don’t have ANY. If you are sporting 150 rounds for your handful of firearms in that particular caliber, I totally agree, you better be one hell of a bow maker.

367. Castle83 on 08 Jan 2013 at 7:20 pm #

     There’s a grand assumption. I would bet most of the regular posters have some skill to contribute.

368. Docwade on 08 Jan 2013 at 7:30 pm #

     You are assuming I’m talking about you. I’m talking about the dual desert eagle wielders, the pump action shotgun carriers stuff down their pants leg in the movies, all the guys who think they are going to just run down to the local gun store and steal firearms, the “professional” melee fighters who never seem to get tired, the guys who think they can hump a 150lbs loadout 40 miles on the run, the list goes n and on.

369. Castle83 on 08 Jan 2013 at 7:57 pm #

     And I applaud you for your statement. They are absolutely worthless. I’m talking about regular posters that actually have something to say. It’s pretty easy to avoid the mall ninjas, just don’t respond to their posts.

     If you have a problem with particular posters call them out, we’re all adults here.

370. wheelgunner on 08 Jan 2013 at 8:38 pm #

     Seriously. Quit talking to us about “Them”. We are not made equal, and I haven’t seen a single one of them post on the subject.

371. Docwade on 08 Jan 2013 at 10:51 pm #

     The world doesn’t revolve around you and your delicate sensibilities. I really like your gun collection. It’s not my go-to choice, but I like the mechanics of the old school stuff. I wouldn’t trade it for my nickel-boron plated rpd carbine though. But, I have not posted the you are one of “them”. Are you concerned that you are?

372. Docwade on 08 Jan 2013 at 10:52 pm #

     You know…the first step is admitting you have a problem…

373. wheelgunner on 08 Jan 2013 at 11:21 pm #

     The second is hitting things with an ax?

374. wheelgunner on 08 Jan 2013 at 11:22 pm #

     You know, as much as I like hitting things with axes, it is kind of a shame that Angry got here with the monicker first.

375. McLuvin on 09 Jan 2013 at 12:56 am #

     Considering that angry hasn’t posted in damn near a month I vote that you can usurp his screen name if you want it.

376. wheelgunner on 09 Jan 2013 at 1:39 am #

     One of my prepping crew saw me on here and told me that he’s been waiting moderation for about that long.

     Incidentally, he thinks that you speak the voice of truth, and that I am a very dangerous person.

377. wheelgunner on 09 Jan 2013 at 2:00 am #

     @Doc-If I had the RPD, you can bet I’d be looking long and hard at my Winchester. That, namely, being part of the problem. I don’t have an RPD.

     @3-15-I went scrounging through some of my magazines and articles. Found some with endorsements for the Lyman Great Plains .50 cal. Thought you might want to know.

378. Docwade on 09 Jan 2013 at 1:35 pm #

     The only thing I wish the rpd had was a quick change barrel like my pkm.

379. wheelgunner on 09 Jan 2013 at 3:33 pm #

     No one true design. It’s one of the reasons we will never agree. Oh well. Wonder if Angry is dead or something?

380. wheelgunner on 09 Jan 2013 at 3:52 pm #

     Stumbled across an interesting Rossi while about the internet. They are apparently making a leveraction .410. Thought I’d throw it out there and see if anybody had an opinion.

381. Docwade on 09 Jan 2013 at 5:23 pm #

     I have one in stainless I bought for my wife. You can only run 2.5″ shells. The loading gate and action requires a lot of work. The loading gate itself has some razor sharp edges and the loading gate spring is overly strong. It’s fun though.

382. Docwade on 09 Jan 2013 at 5:27 pm #

     “no one true design”. What do you mean?

383. wheelgunner on 09 Jan 2013 at 5:48 pm #

     I meant that there is no perfect gun. So, you have tradeoffs and preferences.

384. McLuvin on 09 Jan 2013 at 7:36 pm #

     This is probably going to surprise you, but I do have an opinion on lever action shotguns.

385. wheelgunner on 09 Jan 2013 at 7:50 pm #

     No. I know for a fact that you have an opinion. If you have a good one, I would be moderately surprised.

386. 3-15 INF on 09 Jan 2013 at 9:04 pm #

     what would be the advantage over a pump?

387. McLuvin on 09 Jan 2013 at 9:27 pm #

     I’ve always had a soft spot for the 1887 even though I couldn’t force myself to buy one. That particular gun is just as effective as a pump gun. I prefer semi autos, but with practice, a pump or lever could be very functional. Anything in .410 is a waste of time.

388. wheelgunner on 09 Jan 2013 at 9:57 pm #

     I love leveractions. I would rather have a double barrel than an 1887. The action is stiff, and you can only shoot low brass 2 3/4 shells. A hundred years ago? All over it. These days? Remington 870 or Stoeger Uplander. I like workhorses.

389. Docwade on 09 Jan 2013 at 10:29 pm #

     I have a Norinco IAC ’87 clone that I had Nib-X coated. More for fun than. Again, even the remakes only chamber 2-3/4″ shells due to the mechanics of the action. They were short-lived with the advent of pump action shotguns. Which was the opposite for rifles of the time.

390. wheelgunner on 10 Jan 2013 at 2:01 am #

     The originals where chambered for the 2 5/8 inch paper cartridges. The problem with the shotgun is the recoil and the width of the cartridge did not lend themselves to the early leveraction and steel of the time. If memory serves, there where already pump actions in production. The other problem is the original paper cartridge. The brass “old fashioned” shotgun shells that you commonly see these days didn’t come around until WW1, when the army had them designed to withstand the wet and grime of the trenches. The modern magnum 12 gauge round kind of killed the ’87 off for me and mine.

     Incidentally, in black powder and early smokeless, 10 gauge was long and far the gauge of choice for shotguns. No need for a magnum.

     One of the major problems with the period pump action rifles that I’ve handled is that they had not yet invented the slide catch. There is literally nothing stopping a bump or really loose slide from pumping without your input. The pump rifle also debuted after the bolt action, which is not a plus. Winchester and Colt where the AR-15 and Glock of there day, in a world where they literally invented the rapid fire reliable firearm.

391. Docwade on 10 Jan 2013 at 12:28 pm #

     You write as though you’ve owned one. Have you owned one?

392. wheelgunner on 10 Jan 2013 at 1:33 pm #

     No. I’ve run a few, looked at a lot. When I can, I product test before I buy. Learned my lesson.

     And I read books, which is apparently not a supporting claim for an argument anymore. I do a lot of research, using whatever mediums I can.

393. 3-15 INF on 10 Jan 2013 at 2:33 pm #

     has anyone seen this Red Jacket ZK-22 bullpup stock for the 10/22? looks like they might have actually made a stock that can be semi mass produced that is worth a crap. It’s light, ambidextrous, and seems pretty handy. Anyone think it’s better than a folding stock or sbr?

394. 3-15 INF on 10 Jan 2013 at 2:47 pm #

     eh, never mind, it’s an airsoft shell of the magpull pdr concept- what jerkoffs

395. Docwade on 10 Jan 2013 at 4:47 pm #

     Yep, and you have to use the 20″ barrel or it will be too short in overall length.

396. wheelgunner on 11 Jan 2013 at 10:11 am #

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE_7L96xi-I

     10/22 bullpup thing.

397. Docwade on 12 Jan 2013 at 10:53 am #

     Correction, 18″ barrel.

398. 3-15 INF on 16 Jan 2013 at 6:31 am #

     found my newest gun I’m gonna get- the Taurus 905 in 9mm. Fires with moon clips or loose. Great ccw gun. I have the 85 model in .38 special, but always wanted one in 9mm. Anyone who hasn’t carried a snubbie, you should try. Great lightweight, smooth fast firepower that you can wear anywhere.

399. McLuvin on 16 Jan 2013 at 9:19 am #

     Not a bad choice. 9mm gives you a slight upgrade in power over standard .38 and reloading with moon clips is much faster than speedloaders.

400. 3-15 INF on 16 Jan 2013 at 12:26 pm #

     Yeah, the .38 Special is not a very good round. I fire the =P 125 grain rounds, and they are ok, but nothing to love. Sharing rounds with my autos would be a plus.

401. 3-15 INF on 16 Jan 2013 at 12:29 pm #

     they also have a 9- shot .22 revolver, but that kinda lacks utility. It would be a good pistol for someone who wanted to share ammo with their trust .22 rifle but didn’t want to spend for mags ( I.E. to spend more on rifle mags) They pistol is a backup anyway.

402. 3-15 INF on 22 Jan 2013 at 3:29 am #

     Can anyone report on availability of ammo in U.S.A? I heard it’s cleared out. Might be a good time to switch to bow and arrow if you can’t get any ;)

403. McLuvin on 22 Jan 2013 at 8:09 am #

     There’s still plenty around here. It’s just 50% more expensive right now. This is the #1 reason to stockpile. I can shoot at my normal rate and not worry about these crazy panic prices. When things settle down I’ll buy some more at normal prices.

404. CompShooter on 22 Jan 2013 at 6:47 pm #

     Can’t find 223 around here in Mich. Local grocery stores have plenty of shotgun, 270, 30.06, and 30.30. But most pistol calibers are gone. I saw two boxes of 380 in the locked case. Sporting gds stores are ok on everything except 223 (hit or miss) Reloading supplies are taking a noticeable hit , especially primers , some powders and specific bullets. i can easily ride it out but still pick up stuff when I can find it. I don’t know about new cases but being brass its expensive anyway.I buy once fired at gunshows or pick up the empties at the range and sort them by brand for rifles only. My chronso test show less than 35 fps between four brands using the same load data on my 45 acp .

405. HangMan on 28 Jan 2013 at 6:41 am #

     Every mainstream calliber here is gone. 30.06, .22, .223, 5.56, 7.72, even 12 gauge is deminished. It’s a real son of a bitch here in colorado. You name it and you’ll probably have to actually HUNT for the damn calliber.

406. McLuvin on 28 Jan 2013 at 11:33 am #

     That’s why I buy in bulk when it’s on sale. I never understood the mentality of buying a box or two at a time when you want to go shooting.
     You end up paying considerably more on every box and WAY more if there’s a shortage.

407. Castle83 on 30 Jan 2013 at 3:27 pm #

     What do you consider a good supply? I usually try to pick up 1000 of my commonly shot calibers when I go to the gun show. But I got a buddy on the extream that keeps over 20k rounds which is just rediculous.

408. McLuvin on 30 Jan 2013 at 8:39 pm #

     I have about 7,500-8,000 rounds of center fire ammo right now. I would like to be back over 10k, but I’m not buying anything at these prices.

409. Docwade on 03 Feb 2013 at 11:01 pm #

     The prices are just ludicrous. I just saw a case of pmc bronze 223 on gunbroker that was bid up to $755. It’s was $250 at Kames a month ago.

410. McLuvin on 03 Feb 2013 at 11:39 pm #

     I’ve said it before, I can’t hate the people trying to make money, but I can hate the idiots paying the stupid prices.

411. Leatherneck on 04 Feb 2013 at 4:43 pm #

     I don’t hate them, I pity them. Buying up ammo at ridiculous prices. Most of it will probably still be in there cabinet when the panic is over and prices normalize. Tho I must confess, I just spent $35 for 100 rnds of 7.62x54r. I was gonna get some .22s, but even that has gotten ridiculous.

412. McLuvin on 04 Feb 2013 at 9:34 pm #

     Pity is for those who aren’t in control of their circumstances. I pity someone who gets laid off due to the poor economy. These idiots are choosing to do something unnecessary that hurts us all.

413. Leatherneck on 05 Feb 2013 at 5:29 pm #

     You are correct, McLuvin. But maybe they can’t help being idiots.

414. CompShooter on 10 Feb 2013 at 5:06 pm #

     Idiots are buying 500 rd bricks of 22 LR for $65 .people need to calm the hell down and the prices and production will even out

415. HangMan on 12 Feb 2013 at 10:31 pm #

     Managed to find some at wal-mart, they just restocked. There’s a new rule in place though that you can only buy three cases of ammo in a day. Fucking rediculous.

416. CompShooter on 13 Feb 2013 at 7:35 am #

     A local gander mountain has a restriction of 10 boxes per day which is easily thwarted by having several of your non shooting friends go with you .

417. HangMan on 16 Feb 2013 at 9:50 pm #

     http://start.toshiba.com/news/read.php?rip_id=%3CDA4FOG001%40news.ap.org%3E&ps=1011&page=1

     Ignorance at its finest.

418. 3-15 INF on 19 Feb 2013 at 9:46 am #

     what stupidity. people making gun laws that don’t know the first thing about guns. Hey @wheelgunner- been looking into making a bow out of pvc pipe and a heat gun- some guys have been posting their success on youtube- whatya think of that? Way easier than carving one and pvc is in every house. Easy to scavenge and you can shape it in recurve, long bow, horse bow, etc…

419. wheelgunner on 19 Feb 2013 at 1:16 pm #

     It definitely sounds interesting. I have seen the ones with a taped over fiberglass rod for a core, but not a stand alone pvc bow. If it works, I’m game to try it. Any ideas on how much speed or draw weight you get on one?

     I’ve been looking at a new survival bow from Dave Canterbury’s Pathfinder School website. The limbs fold up into the handle, 50lb or 60lb draw weight, cost under $150.

     I feel that a small update is in order. I have recently begun to build up on my survival techniques and shtf skills. I have started getting a group together and have been working/working with them to get prepared. I have added a crossbow, some more melee and survival gear, and a few other things to the pot for a good survival stew.

     McLuvin-Sometimes, there are a vast number of shooters who, for one reason or another, cannot afford to buy in bulk. Also, does ammo really go on sale up there?

420. McLuvin on 19 Feb 2013 at 11:13 pm #

     Buying in bulk when it’s cheap costs considerably less so the expense is no excuse.

     Ammo goes on sale on the internet which I believe is available everywhere.

421. CompShooter on 20 Feb 2013 at 12:26 pm #

     Internet bulk sales of ammo is one of the considerations of the propossed ban. You might want to jump on that soon . Reloading supplies for 9mm and .223 is getting difficult to find. Even the private dealer I know is running dry

422. wheelgunner on 20 Feb 2013 at 3:00 pm #

     MUAHAHAHAHA! I can still find all of my “uncommon” ammo in bulk. Thinking about selling my Ar. Not sure if I should sell it outright, or trade it in on something.

423. CompShooter on 20 Feb 2013 at 7:08 pm #

     I seen this back in 94. Friends i knew sold off their rifles for a quick buck and regretted it. Took awhile to get one and set it up as before. Even if its likely that a national ban won’t get the vote some states are doing it. All I’m going to say is not for any price .

424. wheelgunner on 20 Feb 2013 at 9:17 pm #

     Oh god. No. I just hate the damn thing. Getting my money back is just a plus. Thinking about putting it into reloading buffalo bullets.

425. wheelgunner on 06 Mar 2013 at 11:49 am #

     Have any of you ever been shot or blade wounded?

426. Angryvikingman on 06 Mar 2013 at 5:32 pm #

     Yes. Both.

427. wheelgunner on 07 Mar 2013 at 12:06 am #

     Viking. Whoa. Been a while.

     Would a where and with what be in order? I got curious about experiences and how things where dealt with.

428. HangMan on 08 Mar 2013 at 7:29 pm #

     I was clipped in the elbow by some drunk hunters out for rabbit. Also have a scar across my stomach where some guy tried to gut me as a kid, he only grazed me and I ran like hell. Biloxi is a crazy place.

429. McLuvin on 08 Mar 2013 at 10:06 pm #

     Maybe Vikings post was a cry for help. Perhaps he was both shot and stabbed immediately before writing that. He bled out hoping Wheelgunner would send help.

     On a serious note, way to reappear after months of nothing, only to make a vague, leading comment and not respond when directly asked for more info. No wonder this site is flourishing.

430. wheelgunner on 09 Mar 2013 at 1:25 pm #

     McLuvin-On the same token, you could have answered the question yourself.

     “No wonder the site is flourishing.”

     Viking has been busy before, he’ll be busy again, maybe nobody can make up there mind if it’s worth commenting anymore. Shit happens.

431. McLuvin on 09 Mar 2013 at 6:52 pm #

     I have never been shot excluding ricochets and I’ve been “blade wounded” more than I can think of.

432. wheelgunner on 09 Mar 2013 at 8:14 pm #

     I went out and played around with a crossbow the other day. Had a sighted in red dot on it. Had some interesting results.

     I found that it had a terrible habit of ricocheting into the wild blue yonder, in the never to be seen again category. The sight, however, was spot on. The rest of my crew are scope shooters, and they played around with it a bit and loved it.

     Slower by far than a bow. It was a 125lb pull, and there was no chance of reloading on the run. I found it to be very cumbersome. It reminded me a lot of a Remington 700 with a 26″ super bull barrel. Neither would stay upright when slung over the shoulder. I ended up taking the attached quiver off, which was surprisingly easy, and it helped the balance out a damn sight.

     All in all? It was kind of fun. I still would take a bow over it, but I’d still take it over a High Point. Definitely a consideration for some members of my group.

433. CompShooter on 13 Apr 2013 at 7:50 pm #

     The last few gun shows I seen people NOT buy $75 bricks of 22lr ammo .

434. Leatherneck on 15 Apr 2013 at 4:38 pm #

     Local gun shop has been getting in shipments of .22lr that last a couple days. Just wish they could keep the other calibers.

435. specially equipped guardsman on 22 May 2013 at 9:25 am #

     So…how you guys been

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